Bakker の Pacific Rim Job

[Sci-2]

We don't have a ton of description, but I think they're a lot like gargoyles except for alien, oyster-shaped heads.

Does the original mouth open sideways, like a crocodile that turned so one set of limbs are pressed against the ground?

Seems like Bakker was trying to recall labia with teeth?

[unJon]

I thought there was a decent description in False Sun. And I thought it was consistent with the epilogue of TWP. So I've been assuming TWP was the real body if the Inchy.

[Tears of Lys]

That's what I think as well. Where does it say they have some other "true" body?

[jurble]

I wish there was some Inchie fan-art because I can't imagine them at all. Oyster-turned sideways heads with a human face set into the jaws of the larger skull. Translucent skin, bat-wings, giant phalluses.

[Happy Ent]

That's what I think as well. Where does it say they have some other "true" body?

They may have had a “true body” eons ago, before their civilisation reached the technological singularity. But then, they were not the Inchoroi.

See, the Inchoroi are we. In the dystopia of Bakker and other transhumanists, mankind will eclipse its genetic programming and become the author of its own physiological reality. The Inchoroi homeworld may very well be Earth, and I like to think of it as such.

After finally fixing character encodings, moving pavements, friendly AI, and flying cars, the Inchoroi civilisation quickly turned to self-modification. They (correctly) deduce that unfettered hedonism is the way to go. They produce amazing porn and highly flexible and inventive fleshbots, but the real breakthrough is the ability to rid yourself of compassion while simultaneously increasing the emotional stimulus from pleasure. Imagine if we could do this! Reprogram our brains so that every single drop of Lagavulin tastes like the first, every kiss and caress is an explosion of lust, every peach tastes sweet and juicy, every Palestrina mass overwhelms you with joy. At the same time, remove everything that might get in the way of these feelings: guilt, fear, doubt, morals, empathy, compassion. Oh, and they became immortal.

Such creatures experience heaven, or close enough.

This is what the Inchoroi made of themselves. I think it makes complete sense. We know from his writings that Bakker thinks is a plausible development for our own civilisation. That is why Earth is the Inchoroi homeworld.

Somewhere around this time, the Inchoroi would have remade their phenotype. Possibly individually and in many different ways. Wings, multiple arms, tentacles, conifers. We don’t know.

The Inchoroi took to the stars. We don’t know when that happened relative to the other changes in their lifestyle.

The Inchoroi learned of their damnation. We don’t know when that happened relative to the other changes, but it’s probably long after the remade themselves to level 70 hedonists.

Crackpot: Eärwa is their homeworld, to which they return after eons of space travel. Eärwa is Earth.

[koudoulis]

god damn...

[wolverine]

Sometimes you guys scare me...

[Madness]

Lol. +1 HE. Point being is they could have been any 'original' form but, after Graft after Graft, have changed how they think and act and also how they perceive and exist.

Which, actually, is my only contention with your narrative, HE. If we go the way of the Inchoroi, it'll be in bodily augmentation resulting in consequent changes in our 'inner' experiences, which prompt the noospheric (, in this case, any and all brains constituting the human species,) manipulation (of desire/any 'consensual experience') that you've suggestion.

[Tears of Lys]

They may have had a “true body” eons ago, before their civilisation reached the technological singularity. But then, they were not the Inchoroi.

See, the Inchoroi are we. In the dystopia of Bakker and other transhumanists, mankind will eclipse its genetic programming and become the author of its own physiological reality. The Inchoroi homeworld may very well be Earth, and I like to think of it as such.

After finally fixing character encodings, moving pavements, friendly AI, and flying cars, the Inchoroi civilisation quickly turned to self-modification. They (correctly) deduce that unfettered hedonism is the way to go. They produce amazing porn and highly flexible and inventive fleshbots, but the real breakthrough is the ability to rid yourself of compassion while simultaneously increasing the emotional stimulus from pleasure. Imagine if we could do this! Reprogram our brains so that every single drop of Lagavulin tastes like the first, every kiss and caress is an explosion of lust, every peach tastes sweet and juicy, every Palestrina mass overwhelms you with joy. At the same time, remove everything that might get in the way of these feelings: guilt, fear, doubt, morals, empathy, compassion. Oh, and they became immortal.

Such creatures experience heaven, or close enough.

This is what the Inchoroi made of themselves. I think it makes complete sense. We know from his writings that Bakker thinks is a plausible development for our own civilisation. That is why Earth is the Inchoroi homeworld.

Somewhere around this time, the Inchoroi would have remade their phenotype. Possibly individually and in many different ways. Wings, multiple arms, tentacles, conifers. We don’t know.

The Inchoroi took to the stars. We don’t know when that happened relative to the other changes in their lifestyle.

The Inchoroi learned of their damnation. We don’t know when that happened relative to the other changes, but it’s probably long after the remade themselves to level 70 hedonists.

Crackpot: Eärwa is their homeworld, to which they return after eons of space travel. Eärwa is Earth.

Well, humanity would give itself giant phalluses.

[Happy Ent]

Well, humanity would give itself giant phalluses.

We already do, don’t we? (I may be misinformed about the state of that kind of surgical manipulation.) We also have invented drugs to increase and prolong sexual pleasure.

I take these predictions as obvious.

What is more interesting is precisely if we want to, say, link or receptors for “the colour blue” or “kitten” to the pleasure centres of our brain. Or our sense of duty: Imagine getting rewarded by an instant orgasm every time you vacuum the house or do the dishes.

(I have a much less optimistic view of our understanding of neuroanatomy and cognition that most transhumanists. So please don’t read this as an endorsement of the technological feasibility of these ideas.)

[Rhom]

Interesting... I had assumed that pretty much all the forms we saw were variations on the synthese. As in, a different form based on the need at the moment. Good to know.

Oh... and an orgasm for vacuuming the house would be awesome, but potentially messy.

[Sci-2]

Flipping through Warrior Prophet...damn this book had some great scenes. Might be the best out of the first trilogy.

The actions scenes felt way more potent here, probably because in TTT Kellhus is too politically secure and learns the Gnosis.

Would be cool to see Serwa use some uber Dunyain speed. Possibly to kill Sorweel...

[Tears of Lys]

Sci, you remind me of something that's bothered me. I've never been quite comfortable with the way Kellhus' children are born with his Dunyain abilities. I may be misremembering, but I thought he was gone most of the time to attend to expansion and then consolidation of the empire.

The text of Prince of Nothing shows us a young Kel learning how to read the musculature of faces. When would his children have learned this? I suppose it's not impossible that he stuck around long enough to set their education in motion, but wouldn't that have necessitated putting people in place to continue their studies? Ishual was an entire compound dedicated to becoming a self-moving soul. Is it possible that Kellhus transported some of his fellow Dunyain down to educate his children?

I mean, skin spy lessons would only go so far. And I would think that you'd have to learn REAL faces before you can identify a skin spy.

The physical speed abilities I can understand. Breeding for these and other qualities would transfer to offspring in some percentage of cases (not all, as we see with Sammi and who knows who else.)

[Calibandar]

I don't see a contradiction.

Kellhus was, according to Bakker, a prodigy among even the Dunyain.

This will surely have to do with his special heritage.

This will to a large extent, transfer to his children.

In addition we are told they receive Dunyain training, there is reference to their Whelming for instance.

20 years have passed between TTT and TJE, I don't see why there would not have been plenty of time.

So yeah, they've had Dunyain training, on top of their natural prowess.

Of course some of them do not belong to the Few, because they do not have that gift.

[Happy Ent]

Interesting... I had assumed that pretty much all the forms we saw were variations on the synthese.

The synthese is not a body of the Inchoroi. We see the Inchoroi Aurang in detail in the short story “The False Sun,” and get a very similar description of Aurang in a flashback (from Kelmo’s point of view) in “White-Luck Warrior”. Oyster-skull, wings, translucent skin. The same physical form is described in the prologue of “Warrior Prophet”, interrogating a human tribe about “Who are the Dunyain?”. This may or may not be Aurang again.

When we see the bird-form Synthese, Aurang’s true body is far away (or is it Aurax?). Kellhus tells us this when adressing Posessed!Esmi:

“Across the world in Golgotterath,” Kellhus gasped, still stamping out the coals of his manic lust, “the Mangaecca squat about your true flesh, rocking to the mutter of endless Cants The Synthese is but a node.”

[Happy Ent]

As far as I remember, consensus is that we cannot establish that we have seen Aurax yet, nor have had any other Inchoroi described. Aurax may be a giant tortoise, or a giraffe for all we know.

[Happy Ent]

Ah, waidaminute. Don’t we have description of Nonmen art in Judging Eye that depicts Inchoroi? I think that was consistent with them all looking like Aurang.

[Tears of Lys]

I don't see a contradiction.

Kellhus was, according to Bakker, a prodigy among even the Dunyain.

This will surely have to do with his special heritage.

This will to a large extent, transfer to his children.

In addition we are told they receive Dunyain training, there is reference to their Whelming for instance.

20 years have passed between TTT and TJE, I don't see why there would not have been plenty of time.

So yeah, they've had Dunyain training, on top of their natural prowess.

Of course some of them do not belong to the Few, because they do not have that gift.

I'll have to search for references to "Whelming," I don't have a clear understanding of what's involved in that process.

[Sci-2]

Sci, you remind me of something that's bothered me.

Sadly, many women have uttered these words to me. ;-)

I've never been quite comfortable with the way Kellhus' children are born with his Dunyain abilities. I may be misremembering, but I thought he was gone most of the time to attend to expansion and then consolidation of the empire.

Actually Theli addresses this. IIRC the Dunyain children can read passions, but to surmise more detailed intent takes training.

Khellus trained Inrialtas for a time, and I'm guessing he did something similar of Serwa and Kayutas.

@HE:

Yeah, IIRC there are stone carvings in Cil-Aujaus that depict the Inchies.

I don't recall a flashback in WLW involving them though?

[Happy Ent]

What I still don't quite get is the man who hooks up w/ Esmenet in the first book. It seems the synthese was there, so was it a possession? If it is a possession, is that the Gnosis?

My interpretation is that she had intercourse with the bird, who magicked her into thinking he was a handsome man.

The Thing Called Sarcellus things about how good it would be to be where the Old Father had been before, so that convinces me that the Old Father (i.e., the Synthese) did indeed physically penetrate her. It’s not a skin spy, and its not an illusion.

Also, her visitor seems to fly away at the end, so it’s not a human-shaped “node” body, remote controlled like Aurang remote-controls the Synthese.