Could This Dragon Be A Real Wolf?

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

The theory that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne is very popular among ASOIAF readers: we know for certain that Ashara gave birth a child that according to Barristan Selmy was a baby girl but other than that there's nothing sure about the sex of this baby. Now, if Septa Lemore's child didn't die the question is where is he/she and most important, who is the father of this child?.

According to what it's known, Ashara was the object of affection of Eddard Stark at the Tourney of Harrenhall and in Barristan Selmy's account she was dishonored at Harrenhall. Most of the readers think of Ned Stark as the second coming of Baelor the Saint but at that time he was young and unengaged and if he was infatuated with this young and beautiful dornish woman is likely they did become lovers, specially if his brother Brandon Stark encouraged both of them to do it. Ned and Ashara reunited again after the events of the Tower of Joy where Ned killed Ashara's brother. I'm assuming that Ashara got pregnant and gave birth to Ned's child but would she tell to a man that just killed her blood that she just have his son?...would she tell the rest of the world that she got a bastard child from the man who dishonored her and kill her brother?.

Now let's check the timeline of these events:

1-Tourney of Harrenhall (281 AL)

2-Less than a year later Aegon Targaryen is born and so was Ashara's child.

3-The supposed kidnapping of Lyanna Stark occurred and the War of the Usurper (a.k.a Robert's Rebellion) begins sometime in 282 AL

4-Brandon Stark is killed and Ned married with Catelyn Tully (for political reasons)

5-A year later the war's ended, Ned find Lyanna and Jon Snow is born, all of this around the same time.

In the last (maybe two) two month(s) King Aerys has been murdered by Jaime Lannister, at least one of Prince Rhaegar's childs is death, Ned Stark and Cat Tully son is born and so is Jon Snow.....And of course, Ashara Dayne "commit suicide".

BLACK OR RED A DRAGON IS A DRAGON

If Young Griff is not the son of Prince Rhaegar but some Blackfyre then he's maybe a fake Targaryen but not a fake dragon because the Blackfyre are in all but name legitimate Targaryen and have a legitimate claim to the Throne and if the only dragons alive are Danaerys Stormborn and Aegon Blackfyre then they're the two legitime claimants to the IT. But what if Ashara just fake her death and the Young Griff is her and Ned Stark son?...Aegon would be fake, he wouldn't be a dragon but a wolf...an ilegitimate wolf....a lie that Queen Danaerys has to slay.

[RumHam]

According to what it's known, Ashara was the object of affection of Eddard Stark at the Tourney of Harrenhall and in Barristan Selmy's account she was dishonored at Harrenhall. Most of the readers think of Ned Stark as the second coming of Baelor the Saint but at that time he was young and unengaged and if he was infatuated with this young and beautiful dornish woman is likely they did become lovers, specially if his brother Brandon Stark encouraged both of them to do it.

Barristan reflects how a Stark dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal. Many of us think that Stark was Brandon and not Ned.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Barristan reflects how a Stark dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal. Many of us think that Stark was Brandon and not Ned.

Actually he says no such thing. He says that a man dishonored her and that she had turned to a Stark, but never that it was a Stark who dishonored her. It amazes me how often this gets misread.

As for Lemore being Ashara, she's in all likelihood too old.

[RumHam]

Actually he says no such thing. He says that a man dishonored her and that she had turned to a Stark, but never that it was a Stark who dishonored her. It amazes me how often this gets misread.

As for Lemore being Ashara, she's in all likelihood too old.

I don't think I'm misreading it

...mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at

Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a

knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No

good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty,

might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Ok, so she has grief for her dead baby and the man who dishonored her, suggesting that he is dead. Barristan knows he couldn't have slept with her, but still wonders if he might have prevented her suicide if she had come to him and remained a maid (assuming she was one.) I dunno it seems clear to me.

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

There's not a single piece of evidence that show any kind of link between Brandon and Ashara, none. On the other hand, the rumor of a relationship between Ned and Ashara is hinted a lot in the books.

[RumHam]

There's not a single piece of evidence that show any kind of link between Brandon and Ashara, none. On the other hand, the rumor of a relationship between Ned and Ashara is hinted a lot in the books.

The rumor is that she is the father of Ned's bastard, which I think most of us don't believe. I believe that Ned liked her, but was shy and Brandon knocked her up. I think the fact that she only danced with Ned when Brandon asked her, and the quote I posted above are evidence:

...mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her"

Suggests that the person who dishonored her is dead at the time of her suicide. That would rule out Ned.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ok, so she has grief for her dead baby and the man who dishonored her, suggesting that he is dead. Barristan knows he couldn't have slept with her, but still wonders if he might have prevented her suicide if she had come to him and remained a maid (assuming she was one.) I dunno it seems clear to me.

And it does not say that the Stark is the one who dishonored her. In fact, the "looked to," as in, looked to for comfort or help, seems to imply that she only "looked to" a Stark (and it also never says which one) AFTER she was dishonored. The wording is bizarre if it was the Stark who dishonored her. It's a case where people read a passage and draw a connection when one isn't necessarily there.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There's not a single piece of evidence that show any kind of link between Brandon and Ashara, none. On the other hand, the rumor of a relationship between Ned and Ashara is hinted a lot in the books.

Isn't it funny though that despite this rumored love affair, Ned thinks of Ashara precisely never?

[RumHam]

And it does not say that the Stark is the one who dishonored her. In fact, the "looked to," as in, looked to for comfort or help, seems to imply that she only "looked to" a Stark (and it also never says which one) AFTER she was dishonored. The wording is bizarre if it was the Stark who dishonored her. It's a case where people read a passage and draw a connection when one isn't necessarily there.

There's nothing in that passage that suggests the "looking to" came after the dishonoring. In fact I think it's pretty clear what he's talking about. You're saying that Barristan's regret is that a Stark, and not Barristan, comforted Ashara after she was dishonored. That doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Consider the following line:

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

Did Ned think of his mother at anytime or his chidhood?...We don't know all of Ned thoughts because GRRM didn't wrote about it?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There's nothing in that passage that suggests the "looking to" came after the dishonoring. In fact I think it's pretty clear what he's talking about. You're saying that Barristan's regret is that a Stark, and not Barristan, comforted Ashara after she was dishonored. That doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Consider the following line:

"Looking to" someone implies a REASON. Perhaps Barristan thinks that if he had comforted her, it may have prevented her suicide.

Again, IT DOES NOT say that it was a Stark who dishonored her. I think GRRM's doing some wordplay there, sure, but it still doesn't say that. Same way Cersei's prophecy never says another queen; it's just what people infer.

[Father of Hosts]

I'm so confused about this quote now. Who dishonored her at Harrenhall, or who is the leading candidate? Presumably someone who died in the rebellion? Or Ned? Sorry if I'm off topic.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Did Ned think of his mother at anytime or his chidhood?...We don't know all of Ned thoughts because GRRM didn't wrote about it?

If you're arguing that Ned had a child with Ashara or carried on some love affair, I don't think it's unfair to ask why he never thinks of her, not at all. All of the Ashara talk comes from everyone BUT Ned.

[RumHam]

"Looking to" someone implies a REASON.

I think Barristan gives a big hint about what that reason would be:

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Now put yourself in Ashara's shoes. You a pretty noble woman from a good house and you're all upset and looking for someone to comfort you. Do you judge your possible confidants by their martial ability? Probably not. On the other hand I think it's accepted that at least in Westerosi society that winning tournaments can help get you laid.

[intheswamp]

Ashara was Elia's best friend. Elia couldn't have any more children. Rhaegar needed a 3rd child for the 3 headed dragon. The plan was for Ashara to be the surrogate. However, things went wrong. Ashara miscarried (or possibly gave birth if you believe Aegon is her child), with the likely father being one of the following: Aerys, Brandon, Ned, or Rhaegar. I'm assuming that this quote, "...mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her.", is talking about a dead man. So, Ned is out, plus it would be too out of character for Ned to dishonor anyone but himself (He dishonors himself for Lyanna's promise and when he confesses to try and save his daughters lives.). I doubt if it was Rheagar as well, because of the high opinions characters like Barristan and Ned have for him. So, my bet is either Aerys or Brandon as the culprit.

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

If you're arguing that Ned had a child with Ashara or carried on some love affair, I don't think it's unfair to ask why he never thinks of her, not at all. All of the Ashara talk comes from everyone BUT Ned.

That was a thing in his past and now he's married and in love with Catelyn then why should Ned think about Ashara?

[VaramyrSixchins]

And it does not say that the Stark is the one who dishonored her. In fact, the "looked to," as in, looked to for comfort or help, seems to imply that she only "looked to" a Stark (and it also never says which one) AFTER she was dishonored. The wording is bizarre if it was the Stark who dishonored her. It's a case where people read a passage and draw a connection when one isn't necessarily there.

Or, "looked to" in a more chivalrous, tactful sense. As in "She may have looked to me as someone who would have loved her w/out having sex w her."

The entire passage is about regret, & Selmy, like all human beings do when reflecting on & being ashamed of their mistakes, examined it in an IF-THEN construct.

Selmy specifically attributes two motivations to Ashara for her suicide: the stillbirth, & grief for her dishonorer. It's pretty clear Selmy reasons that IF he had won the tourney, THEN he might have prevented her suicide. It follows that to prevent the suicide, then one or both of the two motivators need to have been nullified. Neither motivators happen if Ashara is prevented from being "dishonored". How would she be prevented from being dishonored? By Selmy's reasoning, he, Selmy could've won the tourney, shown Ashara his true feelings, & possibly forestalled any interest she may have had in being "dishonored". Selmy regrets not being able to replace the dishonorer. "Stark" is the one he specifically names as the one he regrets not being able to replace. Therefore, Stark did the "dishonor".

The alternative, that "looked to" refers to some kind of comfort or aid that Selmy thinks he could've provided better than Stark, doesn't hold as logically, IMHO. It begs too many questions: What comfort/aid/whatever did Stark actually provide that failed to prevent the suicide? Why does Selmy think he could do a better job of providing it?

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

Everybody is reading too much into one phrase. The affair between Ned and Ashara has been hinted by Edric Dayne (who is telling the story that his aunt Alliria Dayne has told him), Harwin told Arya that in Winterfell that story was known even Cat hear about it, Cersei teased Ned Stark about the exact same thing. How is something that never happen is so wildly believed as true?

[RumHam]

Everybody is reading too much into one phrase. The affair between Ned and Ashara has been hinted by Edric Dayne (who is telling the story that his aunt Alliria Dayne has told him), Harwin told Arya that in Winterfell that story was known even Cat hear about it, Cersei teased Ned Stark about the exact same thing. How is something that never happen is so wildly believed as true?

Because Ned's affections for Ashara were known and he returned from Starfall with a bastard child?

[Lost Umber]

Everybody is reading too much into one phrase. The affair between Ned and Ashara has been hinted by Edric Dayne (who is telling the story that his aunt Alliria Dayne has told him), Harwin told Arya that in Winterfell that story was known even Cat hear about it, Cersei teased Ned Stark about the exact same thing. How is something that never happen is so wildly believed as true?

wait... what did Cersei say? Can anyone provide the quote? I don't recall seeing that one.