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Do the Crannogmen descend from the Children of the Forest?


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I think it may be so,because the crannogmen are said to be short, as the children of the forest. They also live in the North, where they stayed until they were killed by the Andals. Besides, they seem to know and believe in the children's magic, as warging powers and green dreams. Could it bee that some of the children survived and gave birth to the crannogmen? Or do they descend from the Children and the First Men?

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That's an interesting theory, but from the descriptions of Jojen, Meera and Bowen Marsh, there's nothing inherently inhuman about them. No big eyes, no cat pupils, no big ears or spots on their skin or claw nails. I'd wager, if it's even possible to inbred a human and a child of the forest, at least some of their alien-like traits would pass down.

I think the crannogmen's short stature simply due to natural selection from living in a convoluted area. Though I agree they're shrouded in mysteries and I'd love to read more about them, either in the World volume or in the next two books.

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I've pondered this possibility before, but I doubt it. I think they're just short swamp people who have a closer connection with First Men magic. As Roberto said there's nothing inhuman about them.

Cool possiblity, but I don't think so.

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I'm 50/50 on this. I will throw this bit in to stir the pot. Scientists (David Reich, Harvard Medical among them) are now saying that there are billions of modern humans of European and Asian decent who share some genes with Neanderthals. Estimates are around 2.5% of DNA.

These hook ups would have occurred between 200,000 - 30 or 40,000 years ago. The timeline for the First Men of The Neck and the COTF living in the same area is less than that if the maesters can be believed. So you would have an isolated population and less time for COTF traits to become recessive. Perhaps a voracious reader like GRRM came across an article about this genetic investigation when it was in its infancy and it sparked his imagination. It is one of his favorite themes- Robert's Bastards, Lannisters, long faced Starks???

What I want to know is- How do you breathe mud?

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I don't think so, but I do believe they may have been descended from a group of people that spent time closely with the CotF, learning their ways and being more in tune with nature.

They have held over the teachings and the connections so they seem more like them in the present. But having CotF blood in their veins like the Starks have the blood of the First Men, I don't think so.

Can't say it isn't possible tough, interesting idea!

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I'm 50/50 on this. I will throw this bit in to stir the pot. Scientists (David Reich, Harvard Medical among them) are now saying that there are billions of modern humans of European and Asian decent who share some genes with Neanderthals. Estimates are around 2.5% of DNA.

These hook ups would have occurred between 200,000 - 30 or 40,000 years ago. The timeline for the First Men of The Neck and the COTF living in the same area is less than that if the maesters can be believed. So you would have an isolated population and less time for COTF traits to become recessive. Perhaps a voracious reader like GRRM came across an article about this genetic investigation when it was in its infancy and it sparked his imagination. It is one of his favorite themes- Robert's Bastards, Lannisters, long faced Starks???

What I want to know is- How do you breathe mud?

You may have missed the description of the CoTF, which is fairly inhuman.. Neanderthals genes were very close by to Sapiens, therefore in breeding was possible.

When you talk about other species like CoTF are, you must not refer to science but fantasy world.

In the fantasy world the characteristics of both species are usually carried over in an almost 50/50 rate.

We already know that the first men were all around the north, that crannogmen are related to some dornish people (those around dayne family?) because of their small size both probably induced by common FistMen ancestors..

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You may have missed the description of the CoTF, which is fairly inhuman.. Neanderthals genes were very close by to Sapiens, therefore in breeding was possible.

When you talk about other species like CoTF are, you must not refer to science but fantasy world.

In the fantasy world the characteristics of both species are usually carried over in an almost 50/50 rate.

We already know that the first men were all around the north, that crannogmen are related to some dornish people (those around dayne family?) because of their small size both probably induced by common FistMen ancestors..

Actually didn't miss the description of CTOF being bipedal, capable of speech, seemingly having opposable thumbs, etc. In other words- humanoid. That said- I didn't say I was married to the idea just if it turned out that if someday we hear Howland Reed say that the Crannogmen are descended we might have a basis for that statement.

Also- and I admit I might be wrong about this- but in the fantasy world aren't most of those 50/50 characteristics seen in first or second generations characters? Taking that into account my point was that thousands of years had past. Doesn't Leaf say the CTOF are long lived but weak on reproduction where as the "humans" are shorted lived but reproduce like rabbits?

All in all- I'm just trying to look at all the angles without some canon references to back it up. The OP asked if it was possible so I was trying to answer how it could have been possible and if it was where the idea could have come from.

I will also agree with you that I made a bit of a jump mixing fantasy and science but I thought it appropriate. It could just be that the Crannogmen are short.

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Actually didn't miss the description of CTOF being bipedal, capable of speech, seemingly having opposable thumbs, etc. In other words- humanoid.

Those qualities shall apes have too, yet you can't in breed with an ape. (afaik, didn't try :-P)

That said- I didn't say I was married to the idea just if it turned out that if someday we hear Howland Reed say that the Crannogmen are descended we might have a basis for that statement.

Fair Enough :)

Also- and I admit I might be wrong about this- but in the fantasy world aren't most of those 50/50 characteristics seen in first or second generations characters? Taking that into account my point was that thousands of years had past. Doesn't Leaf say the CTOF are long lived but weak on reproduction where as the "humans" are shorted lived but reproduce like rabbits?

Admitting that you allow for another race to mix with your own at a certain point, so that after a thousands year you can justify the presence of certain magical power but none of the physically distinguishable traits of that race.. ..sounds really odd. No?

Crannogmen are not the only one who experience "magical" - so to speak - knowledge and power, so this is a point less on your cause. What indeed may be true, is that they learnt a lot by staying besides CoTF for quite a while.

All in all- I'm just trying to look at all the angles without some canon references to back it up. The OP asked if it was possible so I was trying to answer how it could have been possible and if it was where the idea could have come from.

I will also agree with you that I made a bit of a jump mixing fantasy and science but I thought it appropriate. It could just be that the Crannogmen are short.

No harm at hall, If I answered to your post it's because I found it interesting and worthy to be replied, so besides I disagreed, I approved your suggestions. :)

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Thinking about it, if the Others can breed with humans... why not the CotF? I mean, to me it would seem only a very derisive few of them became greenseers from thier own genetic line, and also skinchangers/wargs, yet we see it's not uncommon for those(humans) beyond the wall to be one or both, not to mention now south of the wall too. And yes, when the CotF called upon the hammer of the water (or gods, or whatever) to separate the north at the neck, it was said that the crannogmen began a close knit relationship with them. They did fail to do to the neck what they did to the stepstones... but it took a long time and who knows? Maybe the humans have the dominant genes, GRRM has always tried to break away from "typical" fantasy ideas, so saying that in all fantasy its 50/50 is not only kinda silly but a slap to GRRM..... I personally like this idea, and have thought it myself for some time Good Job OP :thumbsup:

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Where is it written that humans can make babies with Others? The Night's King would sleep with an Other, but there's no mention of she ever getting pregnant.

The only mention of inbreeding among different races is humans with giants, and that's most likely folk tale to explain why some are born taller than others.

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I think it is possible they are descended from interbreeding COTF and First men, but if so the COTF blood is so heavily diluted they are essentially just humans with a little twist. Like 1 out of 500 of their 7x(great-) grandparents is a COTF and rest are humans.

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I think it is possible they are descended from interbreeding COTF and First men, but if so the COTF blood is so heavily diluted they are essentially just humans with a little twist. Like 1 out of 500 of their 7x(great-) grandparents is a COTF and rest are humans.

I agree with this. I also wonder if this is a further hint at Jojenpaste. Perhaps his COTF blood will awaken Bran's full powers. Though I think it unlikely, perhaps just his prophetic sight is the reason, or just about anyone can be used. It's all very interesting anyway.

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I have always assumed there was a biological connection and until GRRM writes otherwise nobody can dissuade me from that particular belief.

Perhaps not, but I think what people are saying is that Martin leaves clues and trails leading to particular things that are going to be revelations. There doesn't seem to be one for this idea, since we'd expect some of the physical features of the Children in the Crannogmen to hint at their shared heritage. Sure, the Crannogmen are shunned as different, but for cultural reasons, not physical ones.

I still think it's most likely that we're looking at 4 sentient species inhabiting Westeros over the course of the story: Children of the Forest, Others, Humans, and Giants.

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Well, we have characters where it's spelled out that they're a mix of human and CotF.

The tragic hermit lady of the BWB, Maggie the Frog, the cat-eyed woman who negotiated for Tyrions passage, some others. I think the Reeds are just a less extreme example. "Cat eyes" doesn't happen with all of the other hybrids. Short stature and swarthy hair/eyes and green dreams does.

It also seems that some talents, like greenseeing and skinchanging, are (as far as we can tell) unknown in Essos, and for that matter clearly increase in frequency among First Man families and lineages, like Starks and Wildings.

It also seems that humans and giants interbreed, likewise (apparently) not mentioned in Essos.

Humans mated with the Old Races in Westeros, and the more mixed they are, the more they're like the Old Race.

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Perhaps not, but I think what people are saying is that Martin leaves clues and trails leading to particular things that are going to be revelations. There doesn't seem to be one for this idea, since we'd expect some of the physical features of the Children in the Crannogmen to hint at their shared heritage. Sure, the Crannogmen are shunned as different, but for cultural reasons, not physical ones.

I still think it's most likely that we're looking at 4 sentient species inhabiting Westeros over the course of the story: Children of the Forest, Others, Humans, and Giants.

Think of the Crannogman fighting tactics, poisoned arrows and such. They are one with their environment, like the CotF. The neck moves, they know Magic, like the CotF.

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