Frey Pie Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Seven hells, someone making sense.Robb Stark was an easy guy to like, an easy guy to cheer for, and a guy who would have grown to be a great king.He fucked up, no one denies this, and he suffered the consequences for it. The consequences he suffered were far greater than the sum of the mistakes he made, thats for sure.He betrayed his marriage alliance to the Freys? Sure, he did, but he compensated them with a marriage that was arguably better than the one they were originally promised.The Freys were originally promised the Lord of Winterfell. Alright, that means Walder's grandson (or great-grandson would have been Lord Paramount of the North) thats a good deal.When Robb makes amends, and offers Edmure, this means Walder's grandson will be Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. This is much more beneficial for House Frey, because this means that the person in charge of running the region that most of House Frey lives in, will be half Frey. Allows for favours and preferential treatment and the like.I dislike it when people act like Robb took gold from the Freys and offered shit as recompense. They had a marriage contract with a Lord Paramount (when it was forged Robb was not King) which they gained by extortion, made possible by not doing their duty to their own liege lords. They got a marriage to a Lord Paramount, which had the propensity to be more useful to their House as a whole than the original contract, which they gained by intentionally not doing their duty to their Lords, the Tullys.House Frey, did pretty fucking alright from the alliance, no matter which way you slice it.Like Frey Pie said, pity and admiration. I have pity for him being so young and naive, but admiration for how hard he fought, and how well he did when the other players in the game were far more experienced, and nearly all actively working against him, even some to their own detriment (Balon you fucking moron).Well done Ser. I don't think iv yet seen an argument against Robb which is compelling in any way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Swim Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Like Frey Pie said, pity and admiration. I have pity for him being so young and naive, but admiration for how hard he fought, and how well he did when the other players in the game were far more experienced, and nearly all actively working against him, even some to their own detriment (Balon you fucking moron).Excellently put (including, but not limited to, the part about Balon). Pity and admiration is what I feel for him, too. If given a chance, I think he would have made a very good lord and probably also a very good king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Edmure Tully Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Well done Ser. I don't think iv yet seen an argument against Robb which is compelling in any wayExcellently put (including, but not limited to, the part about Balon). Pity and admiration is what I feel for him, too. If given a chance, I think he would have made a very good lord and probably also a very good king.Aw shucks, thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Didn't he punch a baby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 I dislike it when people act like Robb took gold from the Freys and offered shit as recompense.You must dislike every character in the books then, including Robb himself, or Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Edmure Tully Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 You must dislike every character in the books then, including Robb himself, or Tyrion.I doubt Robb is so arrogant as to think the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands is "shit" compared to himself? Nor do I expect would Tyrion. Or any of the characters in the books. As far as we know, Edmure Tully was the best marriage a Frey has ever gotten, if his status was "shit", what does that make Walder's Erenford wife?And for the record, I was talking about readers, not characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Swim Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 As far as we know, Edmure Tully was the best marriage a Frey has ever gotten, if his status was "shit", what does that make Walder's Erenford wife?Not to mention one that Walder Frey had been after for one of his get ever since Edmure was born. He's not having some second-rate option he never wanted foisted on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernwind Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Honestly I'd say sending Theon to the Iron Islands was the root of it all. Now Robb is my favourite character and I don't blame him for making that decision since it's hard to believe it would backfire im such a way, but it was literally the cause of all of the mistakes Robb made (apart from failing to tell Edmure about his plan) and I shall explain why:1) Ironborn invasion would have most likely gone ahead anyway, but this decision means Robb has no hostage and of course, Theon takes Winterfell.2) This leads to the alleged deaths of Bran and Rickon.3 Ramsay Snow also has the opportunity to annihilate the Northmen trying to liberate Winterfell, then sacks it causing massive damage to the Stark's reputation.4) Robb marries Jeyne out of grief, losing the Frey's.5) Catelyn releases Jaime due to her grief and worry about Sansa.6) Rickard Karstark kills the hostages out of anger, forcing Robb to execute him then lose the Karstarks (also lucky they didn't directly turn on him if you ask me).7) Robb is forced to make a deal with the Frey's since he need troops and this is the cause of the RW. Also since he no longer Jaime as a captive, Tywin is free to pull this off.8) If I'm correct, the breaking of the deal with the Frey's if one of the reasons Roose Bolton turned cloak meaning it's likely the Battle of Duskendale would have been avoided, and the Battle of the Ruby Ford would have been less likely to happen since Robb may not have even required Roose to go North, In summary Robb sending Theon to Pyke meant he lost two valuble political hostages in Theon and Jaime, and lost the Freys, the Karstarks and possibly the men Bolton killed off before the wedding. Also, the burning of Winterfell and the alleged deaths of Bran and Rickon caused a huge drop in morale. So if there is one worst move in the series, it's probably Robb sending Theon away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernwind Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 The Freys were originally promised the Lord of Winterfell. Alright, that means Walder's grandson (or great-grandson would have been Lord Paramount of the North) thats a good deal.When Robb makes amends, and offers Edmure, this means Walder's grandson will be Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. This is much more beneficial for House Frey, because this means that the person in charge of running the region that most of House Frey lives in, will be half Frey. Allows for favours and preferential treatment and the like.I dislike it when people act like Robb took gold from the Freys and offered shit as recompense. They had a marriage contract with a Lord Paramount (when it was forged Robb was not King) which they gained by extortion, made possible by not doing their duty to their own liege lords. They got a marriage to a Lord Paramount, which had the propensity to be more useful to their House as a whole than the original contract, which they gained by intentionally not doing their duty to their Lords, the Tullys. Agreed. I also find it silly how people call out Robb for being an oathbreaker, while the Freys have broken their oaths (for the second time) for refusing to help the lord they're sworn to. And it's not like they're sworn to Iron Throne at the point Robb crossed The Twins since Joffrey never was the rightful king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Agreed. I also find it silly how people call out Robb for being an oathbreaker, while the Freys have broken their oaths (for the second time) for refusing to help the lord they're sworn to. And it's not like they're sworn to Iron Throne at the point Robb crossed The Twins since Joffrey never was the rightful king. The Frey's are almost universally condemned for it. Robb isn't. Robb thought Joffrey was the rightful King when he marched, and after he found out that Stannis was the rightful King he didn't bend the knee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 The Frey's are almost universally condemned for it. Robb isn't. Robb thought Joffrey was the rightful King when he marched, and after he found out that Stannis was the rightful King he didn't bend the knee.He did not find out that Stannis was the rightful King. He found out that Stannis claimed he was. Big difference. Huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I don't hate him.He was dumb enough to trust the freys after he marriage Jeyne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I don't hate him. However like his father he is incredibly naive. His campaign was a series of knee jerks one after the other with no thought of the future whatsoever. a- His campaign was far too hasty. The North has a bigger army then to what Robb Stark showed. An organized army would have given Starks leverage, more people that can council him and a backup army capable of protecting the North while he isn't there. b- Freeing Theon was pretty retarded. He lost all leverage with the iron islands at a time when the North would be exposed. There was nothing that Theon could do that a messenger couldn't do c- The King of the North BS. First of all no other major family would have backed that. Secondly what exactly was Robb trying to achieve? Did he really thought that he could reach Kingslanding, kill the lannisters and return home on his 'cold seat' leaving the 7 kingdoms leaderless?Its ok to use the King of the North BS as a starting point for negotiation but ultimately one has to come down to compromises.I am sure that both Stannis and Renly would have compensated Robb Stark for the efforts he had shown during the war. One could have easily asked (and probably given) the guys to have Robb Stark's future son becoming the next Casterly Rock lord once the war is over. Such childish attitude had stripped the Starks from their historic allies (Baratheons). Robb needed the Baratheons both in terms of soldiers and experience (Stannis is probably the most experienced general in the 7 kingdoms) d- The way he treated his major banner men is ridiculous. He's just a teenager. You don't kill the Karstarks faction leader, treat a seasoned general like the Bolton that way and humiliate the Freys and then still expect a win, especially since you left half your men behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 He did not find out that Stannis was the rightful King. He found out that Stannis claimed he was. Big difference. Huge. Jaime admitted that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella were his bastards. So... nope. You're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Jaime admitted that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella were his bastards. So... nope. You're wrong. To Catelyn though, we don't know if Robb knows it. (Though, to be fair, he probably does) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Didn't bend the knee to the Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Kings Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Robb was a stupid (untrained/unprepared) boy for war that was surfing on the waves of Euphoria. If he bent the knee to a Seasoned Warrior like Stannis like his Dad would've done. Robb would still be alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 To Catelyn though, we don't know if Robb knows it. (Though, to be fair, he probably does) Exactly. It's hard to believe she'd have kept that to herself. Not to mention it would explain the deaths of Jon, Ned and Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Kings Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Robb should've sent his mom back to Winterfell and decapitated the kingslayer. smh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thor2006 Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Robb should've sent his mom back to Winterfell and decapitated the kingslayer. smh Say goodbye to Sansa and Arya(as far as Robb knows),gurrantee that Lannister revenge would be more horrible, get all the North prisoners in Lannister hands killed, made the war where no prissoners were taken a reallity, made the extinction of most Riverlands nobility a fact of life after Tyrell -Lannister alliance was made. Great decision. Much worse that the one that was taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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