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Daenerys in Slaver's bay is to show us that.


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#1 Rod123

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 05:41 PM

We cant simply judge characters based on modern morality.

I had a Tywin is a good character thread locked because i said that according to the times, he was a good ruler, GRRM even points out that 20 years of Tywin means peace and prosperity for 20 years and that he only went awry when Joanna died and when Aerys went against him.

If you want to judge characters on modern morality you end up with Daenerys blunders in Slavers bay.

I the thread i pointed out that Ned couldnt rule because he was honourable, why? because you cant deal honourably with dishonourable foes.

-Ned gave a heads up to Cersei.
-Ned and Robert didnt killed Balon and his sons.

What would Tywin had done? killed everyone and give up the Pyke to Rodrik Harlaw, then have Asha be given in marriage to a Lannister/Stark/Baratheon. Have the islands choose between prosperity and destruction.

The same reason why Julius Caesar was popular, Augustus Caesar too. We cant possibly argue that Pax Romana was a bad thing if you were a peasant. And Tywin is based on that kind of rulers, more specifically Edward I.

Most of the cruel things he did were, the most efficient and even humane things to solve problems that were NOT caused by him.

-The Rains of Castamere was a rebellion caused by Tytos. Over 40 years of peace followed the Westerlands when there was nothing but unrest and rebellion before.

-The Sacking of King Landing was because of a war started by Aerys and finished by Robert, It was to secure Lannister loyalty, but also to end the war by cementing Robert as the only ruler. Had the sack of King Landing not happened these things would instead

1.- Jamie kills Aerys, Robert sacks King Landing, Robert kills the Targaryens.
2.- Jamie doesnt kills Aerys, Aerys razes Kings Landing.
3.- Jamie kills Aerys, Robert doesnt kills Targaryens, fight may continue, possible unrest after Robert's death.

Any possible course would end in more bloodshed.
Turkish Sultans killed their brothers to ensure peace.

-Setting out the Mountain on the Riverlands, That was meant to draw Eddard who was inside Kings Landing, and thus untouchable. Catelyn did kidnapped Tyrion and the whole killing Bran was the fault of Jamie and Joffrey.

-The war of the 5 kings was the fault of Joffrey, Tywin would had struck a deal with Ned and Robb to ensure peace,

-The Red Wedding DID end the war, The lives of a few nobles compared to more and more fighting? of course peasants are nameless characters right? what if they get raped, killed, orphaned etc etc.

When Tywin ruled, peace and prosperity followed, Westerlands were peace and prosper 40 years since he ended the turmoil. When he was hand 20 years of prosper for Westeros. Of course when things went wrong, he had to do, what he had to do.

His only bad personality was being mean to Tyrion.

#2 WhiteWalder

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 05:44 PM

I thought Dany's stay in Slaver's Bay was to show us that it takes time for dragons to grow.

#3 Florina Laufeyson

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 05:47 PM

Hmmm...i guess im just plain wrong in thinking Dany's tenure in Slaver's Bay is a massive deconstruction of her character archetype and what happens to a figure like herself tries to "right some serious wrongs" in a very non-Disney like setting.




Oops. /dunce.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunce:' />

#4 The Dornishman's Wife

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 05:53 PM

We cant simply judge characters based on modern morality.

I had a Tywin is a good character thread locked because i said that according to the times, he was a good ruler, GRRM even points out that 20 years of Tywin means peace and prosperity for 20 years and that he only went awry when Joanna died and when Aerys went against him.

If you want to judge characters on modern morality you end up with Daenerys blunders in Slavers bay.

I the thread i pointed out that Ned couldnt rule because he was honourable, why? because you cant deal honourably with dishonourable foes.

-Ned gave a heads up to Cersei.
-Ned and Robert didnt killed Balon and his sons.

What would Tywin had done? killed everyone and give up the Pyke to Rodrik Harlaw, then have Asha be given in marriage to a Lannister/Stark/Baratheon. Have the islands choose between prosperity and destruction.

The same reason why Julius Caesar was popular, Augustus Caesar too. We cant possibly argue that Pax Romana was a bad thing if you were a peasant. And Tywin is based on that kind of rulers, more specifically Edward I.

Most of the cruel things he did were, the most efficient and even humane things to solve problems that were NOT caused by him.

-The Rains of Castamere was a rebellion caused by Tytos. Over 40 years of peace followed the Westerlands when there was nothing but unrest and rebellion before.

-The Sacking of King Landing was because of a war started by Aerys and finished by Robert, It was to secure Lannister loyalty, but also to end the war by cementing Robert as the only ruler. Had the sack of King Landing not happened these things would instead

1.- Jamie kills Aerys, Robert sacks King Landing, Robert kills the Targaryens.
2.- Jamie doesnt kills Aerys, Aerys razes Kings Landing.
3.- Jamie kills Aerys, Robert doesnt kills Targaryens, fight may continue, possible unrest after Robert's death.

Any possible course would end in more bloodshed.
Turkish Sultans killed their brothers to ensure peace.

-Setting out the Mountain on the Riverlands, That was meant to draw Eddard who was inside Kings Landing, and thus untouchable. Catelyn did kidnapped Tyrion and the whole killing Bran was the fault of Jamie and Joffrey.

-The war of the 5 kings was the fault of Joffrey, Tywin would had struck a deal with Ned and Robb to ensure peace,

-The Red Wedding DID end the war, The lives of a few nobles compared to more and more fighting? of course peasants are nameless characters right? what if they get raped, killed, orphaned etc etc.

When Tywin ruled, peace and prosperity followed, Westerlands were peace and prosper 40 years since he ended the turmoil. When he was hand 20 years of prosper for Westeros. Of course when things went wrong, he had to do, what he had to do.

His only bad personality was being mean to Tyrion.


Wait, I thought I was entering a thread about Dany, not a long litany of butthurt over your thread having been closed and Tywin being so adorable.

Quite unnecessary butthurt by the way, if you read the mod's reasoning he gave in his lock statement.

#5 Wise Fool

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 06:23 PM

The Red Wedding ended the war? So uh, why is literally everyone still fighting?

#6 TheMysteriousOne

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 06:28 PM

Yes, we can because GRRM is writing ASOIAF for a contemporary audience, and so obviously we are supposed to judge the characters using contemporary morality.

#7 DavosSeaworthy

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 06:31 PM

Dany's time in Slaver's Bay is to show us that GRRM likes to create really awkward and hard to pronounce names, and that Dany has bad taste in men, which doesn't make her a bad person, just a bad judge of character when it comes to the ole twig and berries.

#8 Rhymes with Weak

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 06:31 PM

I thought the whole Slaver's Bay quagmire was to reveal some of Dany's faults so she becomes a more realistic character. It worked.

Edited by Rhymes with Weak, 18 August 2013 - 06:31 PM.


#9 Jon of the Dead

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 06:57 PM

I thought the whole Slaver's Bay quagmire was to reveal some of Dany's faults so she becomes a more realistic character. It worked.


It worked a little bit too well, in my opinion

#10 Rhymes with Weak

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 06:58 PM

It worked a little bit too well, in my opinion

I agree with you.

#11 WeirwoodTreeHugger

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:00 PM

Wait, I thought I was entering a thread about Dany, not a long litany of butthurt over your thread having been closed and Tywin being so adorable.

Quite unnecessary butthurt by the way, if you read the mod's reasoning he gave in his lock statement.

1000 times this ^^^^

There was plenty of good points about Tywin not being good that made it in before it was locked anyway.

In the recent interview with IO9, GRRM explained Dany's ADWD. He's critical of the fantasy trope of a hero taking a city or country and ruling perfectly after that without the author going into how she/he rules. In real life you can't conquer a region and rule it trouble free. You can't even rule trouble free if you've been democratically elected. That's what Slaver's Bay shows us.

#12 Rhymes with Weak

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:01 PM

1000 times this ^^^^

There was plenty of good points about Tywin not being good that made it in before it was locked anyway.

In the recent interview with IO9, GRRM explained Dany's ADWD. He's critical of the fantasy trope of a hero taking a city or country and ruling perfectly after that without the author going into how she/he rules. In real life you can't conquer a region and rule it trouble free. You can't even rule trouble free if you've been democratically elected. That's what Slaver's Bay shows us.

I dunno, Stannis handled the re-settling of the gift pretty well...

#13 Newstar

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:06 PM

In the recent interview with IO9, GRRM explained Dany's ADWD. He's critical of the fantasy trope of a hero taking a city or country and ruling perfectly after that without the author going into how she/he rules. In real life you can't conquer a region and rule it trouble free. You can't even rule trouble free if you've been democratically elected. That's what Slaver's Bay shows us.


That was my impression, although there's a difference between "not ruling trouble-free" and "being a total disaster at ruling."

#14 Jon of the Dead

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:09 PM

That was my impression, although there's a difference between "not ruling trouble-free" and "being a total disaster at ruling."


/agree.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':agree:' />

Jon is an example of "not-ruling trouble free", while Dany was more like this:
http://www.fun2gag.c...at-im-doing.jpg

#15 Grimbold

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:15 PM

I dunno, Stannis handled the re-settling of the gift pretty well...


Dany isn't Stannis /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

#16 Howling Mad

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:22 PM

So what does the OP have to do with the title?

#17 Florina Laufeyson

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:31 PM

1000 times this ^^^^

There was plenty of good points about Tywin not being good that made it in before it was locked anyway.

In the recent interview with IO9, GRRM explained Dany's ADWD. He's critical of the fantasy trope of a hero taking a city or country and ruling perfectly after that without the author going into how she/he rules. In real life you can't conquer a region and rule it trouble free. You can't even rule trouble free if you've been democratically elected. That's what Slaver's Bay shows us.

So basically...

Hmmm...i guess im just plain wrong in thinking Dany's tenure in Slaver's Bay is a massive deconstruction of her character archetype and what happens to a figure like herself tries to "right some serious wrongs" in a very non-Disney like setting.




Oops. /dunce.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunce:' />


Huh!

#18 Ser_Patreck

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:37 PM

Daenerys in Slavers' Bay is to show is that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

#19 Rod123

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:38 PM

Im not butthurt about Tywin and i like the contrast with Dany. Dany literally wants to do everything right by modern standards and that feel pretty "off" to me because Dany feels in SoS a character out of place

IMO Dany in slavers bay feels so out of place and thats why IMO Dany is such hated character.

Dany in SoS feels like a Mary Sue that gets everything wrong because she is like someone from modern times.

#20 Rod123

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:42 PM

I love however how Dany is being slowly forced out of her Mary Sue persona by having to make impossible choices. For example i love how Tyrion points out how he would had managed the siege.

Tywin had several flaws, like his pride and fear of smearing the Lannister name. Tyrion on the other hand lacks that flaw.