Lady Stoneheart what are her bad deeds and why?

[Aethermancer]

She hasn't done anything wrong. What are her actual numbers? People post like she's been massacring hundreds, but we've seen her kill relatively few. Just the Freys who by her own witness were involved in the RW. Pod is guilty of serving the Lannisters, so he hangs. Its war and the other side already betrayed one of the most sacred rules in Westeros. Brienne is technically doing the same as Pod. They found her with a Lannister squire, sword, and official document. What is that supposed to look like? Not believing her about Jaime being a changed man is the right thing to do. His 'redemption' is mostly an internal thing he is striving for, not something apparent to everyone else but Brienne.

Lady Stoneheart is fighting a war. She's a hero.

This is indisputable.

You honestly believe that every single person she hanged was involved in the Red Wedding? As for just being a few... In Brienne's chapter they spend hours going past corpse after corpse.

[Aethermancer]

I think because she is not beautiful anymore, some people seem to think that to be an "evil" omen. The fact is, she was decomposing in the water for 2-3 days and that happens. She is delivering justice by hanging and slaughtering lannisters and Freys in patricular. The Bad Guys. there is nothing wrong with that.

Genocide then?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You honestly believe that every single person she hanged was involved in the Red Wedding? As for just being a few... In Brienne's chapter they spend hours going past corpse after corpse.

No. The others were just raiding, slaughtering and raping the smallfolk of the Riverlands.

[Shebara]

I never liked Catelyn Stark since she urged Ned to leave Winterfell and goto KL mostly for the sake of glory for Ned and for her daughter to marry a real prince..that was stupid and she should have known that she was pushing Ned out of his world which he loved...

A few pages later my dislike became irreversible when seeing her mobbing Jon and even trying to push him out of Brans chamber when he wanted to say goodbye to his beloved half-brother...I think deep inside she has been Lady Stoneheart already then. She was hating Jon for being Neds bastard, just because she had to hate someone for that...even if that is not Jons fault at all being Neds bastard.

[Groat]

It amazes me that people will still hate Jaime for the Bran incident, yet defend Cat for trying to murder an innocent child. Pod is innocent, he has done no wrong, and is a prisoner of war. LS was going to murder an innocent child, who has been captured. How does Robb feel about killing innocent children who have been captured?

Also, Brienne may have looked guilty, but the real Cat knows who Brienne is, and respects her. There is no way the real Cat would hang Brienne with out listening to her explanations.

LS is a bit of a monster, a being of pure vengeance. Look at Thoros's quote about her:

“We were king’s men when we began,” the man told her, “but king’s men must have a king, and we have none. We were brothers too, but now our brotherhood is broken. I do not know who we are, if truth be told, nor where we might be going. I only know the road is dark. The fires have not shown me what lies at its end.”

“Lightning comes and goes and then is seen no more. So too with men. Lord Beric’s fire has gone out of this world, I fear. A grimmer shadow leads us in his place.”

Also, there is the simple fact that I have yet to see any evidence that LS cares at all about Cat's children, and until then, I don't see LS as a very favorable character.

[Biglose]

@Groat

First of all Brienne does not look guilty, she is guilty.

Honestly. I mean you could not punish any deserter. They would just need to claim that they "got lost", "wanted to come back", "needed to take a pee"...

LS was going to murder an innocent child, who has been captured. How does Robb feel about killing innocent children who have been captured?

So murdering children is alright if you do not capture them first?

The point is: She has two option: Let all go or kill all except those who would join her. There is not much in between. Let the wrong person go and they will all hang the next day.

Thats whats somethimes a bit different in ASoIaF compared to other fantasy novels. People who act noble do not get the shield of the plot for eternity. Edd is the best example of that. Would he have went to Robert first, he would be still alive, his son would be still alive. And now ask yourself what did it Robb get to piss himself over some dead Lannisters?

If you look at everything Cat has done, the WORST BLOW she ever dealt to her family was not making sure that Tyrion was getting killed. Without Tyrion KL would have went up in Flame and would have been taken by Stannis. No Red Wedding no nothing.

Aragorn, Gemli, Gandalf and Legolas can do that what you ask. They could play Avanger in the forst and do not need to care about keeping a low profile or trusting people. Because even if the whole fucking Lannister army finds them, it would take them just a longer to kill them all.

Again it is not about if you would do the character, or if you would hug her or if you personally like her as a person. I agree beeing a zombie makes you take a big hit on "charisma".

It is about (at least for me) what she did wrong above which is above "I am fighting a war here".

@Shebara

I never liked Catelyn Stark since she urged Ned to leave Winterfell and goto KL mostly for the sake of glory for Ned and for her daughter to marry a real prince..that was stupid and she should have known that she was pushing Ned out of his world which he loved...

Yeah, because loyal Ned would have let his friend hanging in the wind... I much more looked at it that way, that she was only telling him she is ok with it. What he was wanting to hear.

And I guess that was also the interpretation of the guys making the series if you look at how the changed it.

[Cruella]

LS is pretty easy to understand, who wouldn't be like her in her situation? So I don't judge her per se.

However, BwwB used to protect interests of smallfolk at large, and they still do that part, but now instead of objective force in service of theoretical ideal king i.e. justice for all, they seem to be in service of Starks and Tully, which most readers probably don't have much problem with, I suppose. The problem is that instead of killing soldiers guilty of war crimes, they became partisans of Stark cause and want to kill ALL Lannister soldiers, men, noblemen associated with Lannisters, who aren't better or worse than soldiers of other warring factions. And since Lannisters won, and most people who are warriors have no choice but to serve them, it seems like overall goal of BwwB is to eleminate quite a huge part of Westeros population, ordinary people who are only guilty of serving who they think is legally a king at the moment. Thus, they became a force of destruction.

How should, say, ordinary soldier know that Tommen is not rightful king, why is he supposed to put his life in danger and fight against winner side even if he knew? yet, BwwB want to hang Podrick for serving a side which is accepted by most of Westeros as legal rulers. Before, they'd only killed him and ser Hyle if they committed some particular crimes against smallfolk. Tons of perfectly ok people are deserving of death by this logic. your only crime would be being born a man in Westerlands or King's Landing or Reach.

[David Selig]

Before, they'd only killed him and ser Hyle if they committed some particular crimes.

Where do you get that from? Sandor was blamed by the BWB for all Lannister atrocities in the Riverlands even though he had no part in them at all. He only got away thanks to being a super badass, pretty mnuch anyone else would've lost to Beric in trial by battle.

[Biglose]

LS is pretty easy to understand, who wouldn't be like her in her situation? So I don't judge her per se.

However, BwwB used to protect interests of smallfolk at large, and they still do that part, but now instead of objective force in service of theoretical ideal king i.e. justice for all, they seem to be in service of Starks and Tully, which most readers probably don't have much problem with, I suppose. The problem is that instead of killing soldiers guilty of war crimes, they became partisans of Stark cause and want to kill ALL Lannister soldiers, men, noblemen associated with Lannisters, who aren't better or worse than soldiers of other warring factions.

The point is: What should they do? It is not like the Lannisters would be ok with them killing "only some of their soldiers". And honestly to find somebody at that point who did not at least passivly participate in any attrocity... Well, kind of hard.

So the Lannisters are looking for them. Evading patrols if you do not attack them is kind of hard, because no matter how small they are, they could still tell the rest where you are, if they see you and get away.

What the BwB did before the RW worked, because Rob distracted the Lannisters and their allies.

After this point the BwB had only two option:

1. Go home.

2. Fight the Lannisters and their allies who are responsible for around 80%-90% of the "bad deeds" anyway.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It amazes me that people will still hate Jaime for the Bran incident, yet defend Cat for trying to murder an innocent child. Pod is innocent, he has done no wrong, and is a prisoner of war. LS was going to murder an innocent child, who has been captured. How does Robb feel about killing innocent children who have been captured?

Pod is no child. A squire who participated in battle and killed himself, that's an adult according to Westerosi laws and traditions. As well, according to Westerosi laws and traditions, any commonborn PoW could be put to the sword. And in most cases, would. LS included nobles.

Also, Brienne may have looked guilty, but the real Cat knows who Brienne is, and respects her. There is no way the real Cat would hang Brienne with out listening to her explanations.

Uh, she did listen to her explanations? They were just utterly untrustworthy. And objectively, Brienne is guilty of treason three times over. That she is a nice girl doesn't change that.

Also, there is the simple fact that I have yet to see any evidence that LS cares at all about Cat's children, and until then, I don't see LS as a very favorable character.

That's probably the reason she founded an orphanage, is inquiring after Arya all over the Riverlands and all the rest.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Lady Stoneheart is still one of my favorite readings when she first appeared in the books. "She doesn't speak. But she remembers."

I love this whole "Freys are so nice, Lannisters are such good people". To those, I'd just say, grab your copy of Storm of Swords and go to Catelyn's last chapter. Then tell me about their mercy and how they were all forgiving to her and to Robb. If anything, Lady Stoneheart represents me as a reader, what I wanted to happen after the RW. She's taking revenge for me and for every other reader for Catelyn's and Robb's death, and Dacey's, and so many other Northeners.

[Aethermancer]

No. The others were just raiding, slaughtering and raping the smallfolk of the Riverlands.

Like Pod and Ser Hyle...

[Aethermancer]

Pod is no child. A squire who participated in battle and killed himself, that's an adult according to Westerosi laws and traditions. As well, according to Westerosi laws and traditions, any commonborn PoW could be put to the sword. And in most cases, would. LS included nobles.

He is just as much a child as the squires that Karstark killed. Not as young as Bran to be sure, but not considered fully emancipated adults. Pod is also not lowborn.

[Biglose]

The point is, if you argue like that against LS, you are down to "everybody in Westeros is evil". I mean you have Ned Stark killing a deserter from the NW. How old was that lad? 16? 17? 18?

Now Pod is between 14 and 15... And to the last point: So it is ok to kill kids if they are lowborn?

Do you actually see through how many hoops you need to jump to diss her for something she did not even do?

Alright: She is evil but still a saint considering westeros standarts. Can live with that.

[WhineHaus]

A lot of my opinion comes from Thoros. He explains that under Lady Stoneheart's direction, he feels the BWB is losing themselves, becoming a shadow of who they were. Nothing compared to the kind of honor Beric led them with.

I personally like Lady Stoneheart's character, because it adds a lot of grit. But I also agree that she's more tragic than she is evil.

[Jory Cassel]

The point is, if you argue like that against LS, you are down to "everybody in Westeros is evil". I mean you have Ned Stark killing a deserter from the NW. How old was that lad? 16? 17? 18?

Now Pod is between 14 and 15... And to the last point: So it is ok to kill kids if they are lowborn?

Do you actually see through how many hoops you need to jump to diss her for something she did not even do?

Alright: She is evil but still a saint considering westeros standarts. Can live with that.

You're probably confusing the show with the books here, Gared was a seasoned ranger and rather old.

[Daphne23]

You're probably confusing the show with the books here, Gared was a seasoned ranger and rather old.

If Gared had sworn an oath to the Night's Watch at fifteen, then deserted, would Ned not have executed him?

[Jory Cassel]

If Gared had sworn an oath to the Night's Watch at fifteen, then deserted, would Ned not have executed him?

Of course he would've, and I've never stated otherwise.

[Biglose]

@Jory Cassel

Right, I had only the show in mind at that point. Only knew that there was an execution in the book, too...Long time ago.

Well, then you have arya killing a bit younger deserter...

@WhineHouse

My problem with that argument is, that you also could blame her for the weather. Of course the BwB goes down a dark path. That was set from the very beginning.

They could be quite gentel as long as Robb kept the Lannisters busy. But after that, they got most of their attention...

[Mark Antony]

No bad beeds I'm aware of. Keep fighting the good fight Cat!