Book vs. Show characterisation of SanSan: A TV Critic's Analysis

[mormont]

[mod] Let's make this about the show, and not about each other, OK? [/mod]

[fire_ice]

Blackwater episode was waited by some Sansa fans in anticipation how would TV show be dealing with the scene in Sansa's bedroom. And, I must say, given restrictions, GRRM did amazing job... The scene wasn't the one from the books, but it was the second best thing, when Sansa let Sandor know what she knew: "You won't hurt me". Response was simple, and for a second we knew what was said... Brilliance of this scene on each rewatch amazes me, and I honestly believe that this was the most romantic scene in entire GOT.

I have so much I want to say about everything people have written but if I start it will be never ending, I'll ramble, and this quote stood out to me because I really agree.

I do think GRRM did this so well and 'you won't hurt me' was a beautiful line. I sometimes agree with what someone said about his show writing maybe not always being so great, simply because he wrote the books so there will always be comparison. But, it wouldn't work if he wrote episodes like Blackwater in a way that kept it truer to the books when it wouldn't make sense to the rest of the show and to people who don't read the books.

The bedroom scene for example just wouldn't fit with the programme and their relationship up to that point. I think it would just have confused viewers as it would seem to appear from nowhere. And I think GRRM manages to write his episodes very well in keeping it true to the programme, but adding subtle and details to keep readers happy. The line 'you won't hurt me' was really was of these times, I think it was perfect.

sorry if this makes little sense, my thoughts don't translate well at times like this which is annoying.

[The Houndigger]

Welp, even though it's been a few months, I see that this thread is still open, so if it's okay with y'all, I'm gonna have my Coming Out Party here. ;) Really loved Miodrag's article, hit the nail on the head, and brashcandy's thoughts are always so enlightening.

First and foremost, I have to come clean that I am a show-watcher; I haven't read the books (YET), but I have been devouring these boards and essays (particularly on the PtP threads), and I feel like I am pretty up to speed -- though by no means would I be so arrogant and to call myself knowledgable without having read all the books. But I do have the advantage(?) of not being at risk of being called a "book purist". :D There have already been some AMAZING analyses on this thread already, BUT there are some things I wanted to add my 2 cents on...

I'd like to state for the record that, when I first watched the show -- a binge-watch that occurred over one weekend about a month ago -- the Sandor/Sansa dynamic was VERY obvious to me. I have seen posters bring it up in the PtP threads, wondering if any show-only fans were able to pick up on it. I can't speak for everyone, but in my case, it was a resounding YES. Even without the deleted scene from Season 2 (which I saw later), it was definitely there. It was sometime around when he gave her his cloak after the throne room beating that I was like, "aw, I love how the Hound is kinda looking out for Sansa." Then the riot, and BBW... Yeah. And I fully admit that I yelled at my TV when Sansa didn't go with him! haha

Having said that, though, I was a little unprepared to go online afterwards and see that not only is "SanSan" a very real thing, but it's probably one of THE most talked-about relationships in the series! So, that definitely validated my suspicions about them from the show... And obviously, once I found out what REALLY happened in the BBW scene, I understood why Sansa didn't go with him.

So, it's definitely THERE on the show. Now, on to my main points:

Bringing in The Hound "gently"

When I saw that interview with Rory, it just made me scratch my head. And it begs the question: WTF were they waiting for?? It kind of hints that Sandor's story may not indeed end at Season 4, because if his ENTIRE ARC was going to be what we've already seen, then why didn’t they start it sooner, like in the books? So that we can REALLY get to know him thus giving his “death” more of an emotional impact? No sooner did he finally open up about his past than just a few episodes later, he's left for dead under a cliff. This makes little sense if they aren't planning on bringing the character back later. OR it actually makes perfect sense if you believe, as I do, that D&D couldn't give two steaming dog turns about The Hound. I have several examples of this I could point out, but for brevity's sake, I'll resist. LOL

Watering down the BBW scene

The fact that GRRM himself wrote this episode leaves a lot to ponder. At first, I wondered if it was because they didn't want to put the same intensity into it because they don't plan to ever revisit this relationship. But then, after thinking more about it and reading this thread, I am beginning to think GRRM/D&D sanitized it so much because they knew full good and well that if they played that scene out as it was in the books, the show-watching audience would NEVER accept Sandor and Sansa in a romantic dynamic later on in the series! And they might have a point. For myself, personally, it wouldn't have made a difference to me -- as both a consumer and creator of cinema, I tend to lean toward the unorthodox and taboo (which might be what made me zero in on Sandor/Sansa in first place), so I would have liked to have seen it, but I can understand the restrictions placed both on the actors (Sophie T. being underage at the time) and the powers-that-be worrying about major backlash. That doesn't EXCUSE it, obviously, because I definitely think they could have pulled it off without causing "controversy", but it is an explanation.

Also, in another interview, Rory said that, during the filming of "Blackwater", the director, Neil Marshal, would tell him to do one thing, but then D&D would whisper in Rory's ear to do something else entirely, and Rory ultimately had to decide that D&D are the ones buttering his bread, so he listened to them. So, D&D are deliberately undermining their directors. I understand that TV is a different beast than films and that showrunners do have final say, but I found it very telling when Rory flat out stated that D&D were literally stepping in and contradicting the directors. (He didn't name D&D specifically, he said "the producers", but I think the writing is on the wall...)

Cutting the staircase scene

As much as I would have liked to have seen that included in the actual episode, there are a few reasons that I think it wasn't: (a) It just wasn't very well-executed, LOL. It felt like they got the script like 5 minutes before and only had about 10 minutes to shoot it. It came off like a test shoot. Neither actor seemed prepared, and the dialogue itself was a hasty mish-mash of other more intense scenes between them. (b) Yes, you have Sandor blatantly creeping on Sansa at one point (giving her the ol' elevator eyes, commenting on her imminent womanhood, talking about Joffrey hittin' it, etc.), so they likely cut this scene for the same reason they watered down the BBW scene -- so that viewers wouldn't be turned off by them as a potential couple down the line. © A very important aspect of the SanSan dynamic is that nobody but the two of them know about it. For all the time they spent together at KL, their interactions were neither witnessed nor detected by anyone. And yet, in this scene, Tyrion catches them in the act, and he seems genuinely suspicious of Sandor. Again, for those who have read the books and have a more nuanced understanding of the SanSan relash, cutting this scene is like cutting off one's big toe, but in order to appeal to the delicate sensibilities of the "masses", I can see why they ultimately removed it. Though, now that it's "out there", it seems like most have accepted it as part of showcanon anyway...

The age difference

The age difference between the two characters, either in the book or on the show, doesn't bother me. As a gal who dated a 42-year-old when she was 21, I guess I'm desensitized to that sort of thing, LOL. But I also know that a lot of people have a problem with that. It's kind of immature, if you ask me, that people can't see past age to understand how two HUMANS can have a profound connection, and that's just sad, but it's life (as I have myself have experienced firsthand, both personally and professionally). Having said that, though, I think it was wise of the show to cast someone like Sophie Turner who, at the beginning of the show, is CLEARLY very young but is old enough that by the time a "romance" between Sansa & Sandor happens on the show (if it does), she will be a lot older. Sophie herself is already 18, and Sansa may well be that age once she and Sandor reconnect. By this point, I'm sure everyone has already seen Season 4 and witnessed Littlefinger put his smarmy lips all over her. Well, Aiden Gillan is even older than Rory McCann, soooo....

Now, that doesn't mean that McCann wouldn't still be a bit uncomfortable should he have to play a romantic scene with an actress he knew as a child, LOL (he's even indicated that SanSan shipping makes him uncomfortable). As for Sophie, though, in an interview the company I work for did with her at Comic-Con, she stated that she likes older guys, so she should be good to go. Ha.

Sansa's memories of the Hound

Much has been made of the fact that, on the show, once The Hound leaves, Sansa never thinks about or speaks of him again. And that this is troubling not only in her story arc but in the possibility of a future reunion between the characters. While I agree, I don't see any reason why they can't introduce this in Season 5. The UnKiss seems to materialize around this point in time in her storyline anyway, and they can justify it by showing it as a reaction of sorts to Littlefinger kissing her. Perhaps this "awakens" something in her, and thus she begins dreaming of Sandor. We've seen Sansa have dreams on the show before, specifically her nightmare about the riot, right before she wakes up to discover her first period (and look who shows up in that scene! LOL). So, there's a precedent. And, IMO, there's room to introduce her fantasies about Sandor in the next season. But that might be having too much faith in D&D...

All this might be moot

Of course, there is no guarantee that, even if GRRM does bring Sandor back in the series and does pair him romantically with Sansa, D&D will do the same on the show. We've already established that D&D have their "favorites" and that Sandor (or Sansa) clearly isn't one of them. Even if he ended up having a MAJOR impact on the outcome of the show, I'm sure D&D would find a way around it. The fact that they've already cut out Jeyne and Arianne is a scary precedent for this.

D&D don't know what love is

LOL, that sounds a bit hyperbolic and overdramatic, but I honestly believe it. On GoT, when it comes to graphic, meaningless sex, the show does not pull any punches. But a nice, sweet, romantic scene? Suddenly they're a little pink in the cheeks! I can't think of a single legitimately ROMANTIC pairing/moment on this show. Everyone is just kinda f***ing everyone else, and we're supposed to buy that as a "love story". Take Dany & Drogo for instance -- oh, they have no problem showing him nailing her into the dirt, but once she steps into her power and agency and they begin to have a genuine loving relationship, the intimate scenes stop abruptly. I was never invested in Jon/Ygritte. I was never invested in Robb/Talisa. Jaime/Cersei never struck me as legitimate "love". Drogo wasn't around long enough for me to get invested. Really, the only "couple" I ever really found the least bit interesting is Sandor and Sansa, and they barely had any screen time together!! Says something I suppose for how wonderfully GRRM crafted that relationship that D&D can butcher it to shreds but still not kill it completely. :cool4:

Side note: Shae

I actually really liked Shae on the show, but I understand why so many people had a problem with her and I agree. Making her a legitimate love interest for Tyrion makes her betrayal of him at his trial seem to come out of nowhere. She's offended because he treats her like a whore? Bitch you IS a whore! That's what he brought you to KL for in the first place! What does she honestly expect from him?? I think it was just a real shame because D&D made me like her for 3.5 seasons and then they just flipped a switch, and it bummed me out.

In conclusion!

As a filmmaker myself, I understand the restrictions that filming can impose, but as Miodrag has so adeptly pointed out, so much of the changes D&D have made are just... arbitrary. (Would it REALLY have killed them to have the entirety of Sandor & Sansa's conversation after the riot? Or the entirety of Sandor's "deathbed" confession to Arya? You've already got him there under the rock, WTH is "restricting" you from having him recite more of the actual dialogue??) I really love historical and book adaptations, and my feeling has always been (and Miodrag touched on this already), if the story was interesting enough to inspire one to make a movie/TV series about it in the first place, then what's the point in altering ANYTHING if it can be helped?? Especially things so crucial to the story to begin with.

I have many more thoughts on Sandor/Sansa that I have been collecting, mainly having to do with how/if their characters will interact again and the evidence FOR and AGAINST it (as it relates to both the books and the show) which I'd love to post here at some point, if anyone is interested, LOL. If so, let me know the appropriate thread for it. If any PtP threads are still open, I'd love to post them there, since I think that thread has the best and most intelligent posters. :cheers:

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Well, more like 10 cents. Curious to hear any thoughts on this!

[Karmarni]

Interesting, The Houndigger. I found your 'so what's the point of altering anything if it can be helped' fascinating in regards to the show as a whole and Sandor and Sansa in particular. I too realize that these books require condensing. But the show has altered so much in terms of character and plot that when it does come back to the book storyline, it feels either lacking or jarring.

PtP threads are closed until new Sansa material, I believe.

Your evidence for and against future Sandor 'rebirth' in the story would fit best, perhaps, in one of the open "Gravedigger" threads.

And I encourage you to read the source material. The interconnection of the characters is hard to express in written thread posts or from watching the show.

[The Houndigger]

Thanks Karmani! Yeah, I'm definitely not going to post anything further until I've read the books. Context helps sooo much, and there's A LOT of information to absorb. I'll restrict my ramblings to Tumblr for now, LOL.

Yes, I just saw that the PtP threads are on hiatus. Probably a good thing, I think they've covered Sansa's story from just about every possible angle there is. Looking forward to their reinstatement.

I realize that adapting material like this is difficult, but in the right hands, it CAN be done without sacrificing major plot elements and character developments. However, it seems as if D&D are simply making their own "fanboy" version of what they want the series to be as opposed to what it actually IS. I'll be interested to see, once the series wraps, what GRRM's TRUE feelings on the show are. He has to be diplomatic now, but once he's no longer obligated to, I'm sure we'll find out the "real story" soon enough...

[Beric175]

Even Martin has said that this shipping is weird. An older man in love with a prepubescent girl would not receive much support.

[Annara Snow]

Even Martin has said that this shipping is weird. An older man in love with a prepubescent girl would not receive much support.

No, he didn't.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Thanks Karmani! Yeah, I'm definitely not going to post anything further until I've read the books. Context helps sooo much, and there's A LOT of information to absorb. I'll restrict my ramblings to Tumblr for now, LOL.

Yes, I just saw that the PtP threads are on hiatus. Probably a good thing, I think they've covered Sansa's story from just about every possible angle there is. Looking forward to their reinstatement.

I realize that adapting material like this is difficult, but in the right hands, it CAN be done without sacrificing major plot elements and character developments. However, it seems as if D&D are simply making their own "fanboy" version of what they want the series to be as opposed to what it actually IS. I'll be interested to see, once the series wraps, what GRRM's TRUE feelings on the show are. He has to be diplomatic now, but once he's no longer obligated to, I'm sure we'll find out the "real story" soon enough...

I'm not even done reading your first post here, but since you've not finished the books (if you've even started them yet), perhaps you won't mind. I'd like to thank you for bringing this thread back to life and giving me the chance to check some of it out. Also, I find your thoughts on the possible future that still exists for SanSan in the tv verse very interesting and a bit promising, too. Part of me thinks that you are right, and some of the earlier alterations on the show of Sandor's basic characteristics and interactions with Sansa were done to preserve the chances for audience acceptance of them sometime in the future, but part of me fears it was just the show orchestrating him past the entire story with her. I can't help but feel it is about more than just waiting til the time is right, show wise, and more about......D&D's own story preferences. I'm not one who is sure where the characters are going in the book verse, but I am sure they've been very meaningful to each other, and the story does seem to promise something for them in the future, I'm just not sure what that something is.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I am still thoroughly enjoying finishing your first post, but ITA with your second post here, I will be quite interested to hear what GRRM has to say about the finished product of the show.......one of these days.

Thanks for the post and hope you do get around to reading and enjoying the books. Rereads are even more fun, and quite tempting, be warned. One of my greatest joys in rereads is watching Ned wish ill on The Hound, while I happen to thoroughly love both of them, LOL I can't begrudge Ned his feelings, but I can't help but wish well for Sandor as well.

ETA: I have to admit, I'm totally confused on if and what you may have read in relation to the books. I do understand reading threads and catching up on story details (I do the same, so far, with the Dunk and Egg novellas), so I just wanted to say....sorry if I misunderstood on what you have and haven't read.

One thing I think I wanted to point out, I'm not so certain that the show runners don't like Sandor, it's SanSan that seems to be their issue. If anything, this past season seemed to again illustrate that they love certain aspects of him, the protector and tutor type for Arya, and the all around combination of him being a cross between a lone mad dog and lost puppy, the warrior, the hurt brother and son, it's when his character moves beyond that to the SanSan issues that perplex them. I think they adore Rory and Sandor, I do think he'll be back show and book verse, but......I wonder if each story will be very different.

Thank you for bringing more of Rory's forthrightness out and about, by the way. That was an interesting little tidbit, the conflicting info he flat out told us about from directors and producers.

[Le Cygne]

Watering down the BBW scene...

Welcome. Not sure about anything on the show, I pretty much gave up on the show all around. But my take on some of this...

BatB is the way the Sansa and the Hound story is told in the books, from her first through last chapter, he's got all the classic elements covered. The Blackwater scene is a hint they are going there with their story on the show, he wrote it like La Belle et La Bete:

http://romancingthecage.tumblr.com/post/90157713456

Commentary for the scene:

SANSA (to SANDOR): What are you doing here?

Lena Headey (to SANSA): He loves you!...

SANDOR (to SANSA): I could take you with me. Take you to Winterfell. I'll keep you safe.

Neil Marshall (director): We re-shot this scene because the first version we did also had a song in it... He made Sansa sing, but it was the song that she had just finished singing, so coming off the back of the scene it would have...

Peter Dinklage (singing the song from the Disney movie): Really? Beauty and the Beast ...

The age difference between the two characters, either in the book or on the show, doesn't bother me.

Doesn't bother me or anyone I know. The book ages are off, but they could aged her up more, like Dany. She's 18 and at a con while filming season 4, Rory suggested there was love between them, no worries there.

The UnKiss seems to materialize around this point in time in her storyline anyway, and they can justify it by showing it as a reaction of sorts to Littlefinger kissing her. Perhaps this "awakens" something in her, and thus she begins dreaming of Sandor.

I don't like that idea at all. It's important that her sexuality be seen as a reflection of her own desires, and come from within. In the books, this happens during their last encounter, when she cups his cheek, and and is clear soon after.

Really, the only "couple" I ever really found the least bit interesting is Sandor and Sansa, and they barely had any screen time together!! Says something I suppose for how wonderfully GRRM crafted that relationship that D&D can butcher it to shreds but still not kill it completely. :cool4:

Other love stories are good in the books, too. They messed up Jaime and Brienne the same way, they should be remembering each other, too. Dany and Daario are apart at this point in their story, too, and she is dreaming about him, too.

The time apart is really important, they leave out the falling in love part of love stories. They can show these things on film, we see stories like this all the time. These are stories many readers have loved, they just need to show the audience.

This is revealing, Kit Harington (he calls Benioff and Weiss "the writers"):

The hard thing for me with this season – and I wrote to the writers about it early on – is that I wanted the audience to know he’s been missing her. In the books he thinks about her constantly. It’s there, written down, that he’s thinking about Ygritte. In [the show] he doesn’t mention her once until the very beginning of this episode [the episode where she dies]. The real challenge for me this season was showing the audience that he loves her without saying anything or talking about it. Which is kind of impossible, showing the audience the inner-workings of your head. So I had to find moments of that happening and I hope I did... It is sad. He’s been going through heartbreak the entire season. Whether you’ve seen it or not, he’s been going through it.

http://www.elle.com/news/culture/kit-harington-dragon-interview

And... there's this, too:

Cogman responding to criticism that Littlefinger told Sandor's story to Sansa:

"The Hound/Sansa relationship is still a big part of the show." (tweet)

Commentary from Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things:

Bryan Cogman: This bit also proved a little controversial to fans of the book, because of course in the book, the Hound tells the story himself to Sansa. And for some various production reasons, we couldn't shoot that scene, so we ended up working it in this way and having Littlefinger tell the story. And it's... certainly different. I want to assure the fans out there that the Hound and Sansa subplot is alive and well, it's just going to play out a little differently from the book, and that it's okay.

Then Cogman said:

"I just meant that it plays out a bit differently since LF gave the info instead of Hound but that the relationship is still explored." (wicnet)