A different discussion about Catelyn

[Dany Girl]

Are there any Cat fans who hate Stoneheart?

I can't stand the monster and I hate the fact that some fans think she's better and more badass than Catelyn :stillsick:

I think a lot of us dislike LS. She represents all the bad things in Cat (times 10) and show none of the good things. She's a representative of what happens when vengeance claims your heart. Cat has nothing to live for, but LS has her vengeance.

[Mad Monkey]

Is it possible that Stoneheart isn't necessarily trapped in darkness? Lord Beric went through a similar resurrection and while he did lose bits of himself he managed to keep his compassion and idealism all the way to the end when he fished Catelyn's body out of the water. Right now, Stoneheart is in war mode -- but maybe she doesn't have to stay that way. I can't think of anything that would make her pain recede though -- her family (even if you stretch and include Theon and Jon Snow) are all effectively lost to her. Bran's beyond the Wall, Sansa is in the Vale, Rickon is on Skagos, and Arya is in Essos; Edmure is supposed to be heading to the Westerlands. Even if she rearrests Brienne and Jaime, they can't really even tell her where Sansa is or that she is OK.

[Maia]

Yep, I hate Stoneheart and the whole undead deal. I was sad and shocked when Cat died - Robb's death was amply foreshadowed, so I expected it. I was hoping that she would survive and regain independant agency, without having to constantly tiptoe around the men in her family.

After all, Sansa was still alive and I was hoping that she might have briefly converged with Arya and found the strength to live for her daughters and her surviving birth family.

But I absolutely hated her "ressurection" as un-Cat. It not only destroyed the character I loved, but also went against the "uncaring world" concept that led to Stark deaths in the first place! Oh, no, they get an undead avenger! Yikes.

Anyway, I often defend Cat and it is great to have her many good qualities aknowledged here. However, I have to bring up a criticism that has bugged me for some time, namely:

What on earth was she thinking of, when she agreed with Ned's stupid idea to take the kids to court?!! I mean, they were suspecting Cersei and Jaime of Jon Arryn's murder! And if Ned found proof and Cersei was condemned, well, no amount of good feeling among the kids would have healed that breach and resulting hatred between Starks and her children.

Conversely, if the Lannisters were guilty and caught wind of Ned's actions before he could make a convincing case, the Stark kids would become obvious pressure points and targets.

What is more, if they couldn't trust Cersei, who was going to be in charge of the girls' education? If you have no noble lady at court that you could trust to polish and educate your daughters, what's the point of bringing them in the first place?

A septa can't serve that function, she doesn't have the experience of courtly life, understanding of politics or necessary social position. And, of course, even home at Winterfell septa Mordane was unable to control Arya and frequently needed Cat's backing.

Thoughts?

[SerLoin]

I was a huge fan of Cat and am a huge fan of LS. It seems the only way the Starks can get some vengeance is resurrection.

I absolutely love that GRRM took a compassionate/loving female and turned her into an undead vengeance seeking piece of flesh.

I don't get all the LS angst.

[Sunweaver]

I do not hate Stoneheart, I just pity her. She is the last remnant of a kind and strong woman who had everything taken away from her.

Yes, I cannot call her Catelyn, but everytime she appears I feel saddened.

Another Cat moment I thought was great, was the first time she saw Brienne.

She immediately recognized all the pain and humiliation Brienne must have suffered because of her looks, and the hardships thrust on her because for a women in westeros looks are everything.

Catelyn and Brienne's relationship was amazing and it was really tragic that they met again under such horrible circumstances.

[Dany Girl]

<snip>

I think the decision to bring the kids was made before they found out the Lannisters killed Jon.

Sansa was betrothed to Joffery, so taking her was a givin. She was supposed to learn to be a proper Queen from cersei.

Arya was taken because they felt she was too wild up north. A southern education was supposed to turn her into a proper lady. Plus taking her would open doors for a future marriage pact with better options than one of Ned's bannermen. Arya was daughter of the Hand, sister of the future Queen. A lower lord was no longer a proper match, but to get a better match her wild ways needed to be tamed.

Bran, IIRC, was also supposed to go. His dream was to be a knight of the KG. What better place to train than KL with the KG. I think Ned was going to arrange for him to squire for one of the KG members. The fall is the only reason that didn't happen.

Once the fall happened and they found the note from Lysa, it would have been suspicious to not send the girls south.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

As a politician Catelyn was surprisingly shrewd and peace-minded. This is why she was one of my favorite characters.

This is a very good point. I remember reading something some time ago that pointed out how much the study of history improved once women started entering the field in greater numbers. Due to differences in experiences, women started asking different questions about history, leading to studies of things that had been completely ignored - which only enriched the study of history and our understanding of human experiences.

Cat seems to have been the same way w/regard to political insights. She was certainly trained to deal politically, being part of the high nobility and also the firstborn, but she as a woman can approach political questions from a different angle.

I especially loved her point, during the parley with Renly and Stannis, that they should remember they are brothers.

As for Lady Stoneheart, I don't hate her at all. She just makes me sad.

[David Selig]

I recently wrote out some analysis of Cat's POV structure in terms of framing reader opinion-- specifically how that dreaded Jon II aGoT chapter seems to loom over everything that follows and why. I was considering turning it into a second Cat PSA, but since you made this thread, I want to see if it would be appropriate here (it does mention "it should have been you," but not in terms of discussing it on its own-- in relation to the structure of the story and POV interactions that influence opinion).

It would add something new to the discussion, which was my main idea when I made the thread, so if you want to post it here in this thread, go ahead.

[Melpomene]

All I have to say is - nice post! It consists of all the other little or more subtle details of her personality, ones that could be easily overlooked or forgotten.

[Pikachu101]

Did anyone hate Cat at the beginning and only later start to love her?

I disliked her when she was at Bran's bedside but then I started liking her when I saw how much she loved her family.

I think I truly started to love and appreciate her in ACoK, especially after her negotiation with Renly and Stannis

[Dany Girl]

Did anyone hate Cat at the beginning and only later start to love her?

I disliked her when she was at Bran's bedside but then I started liking her when I saw how much she loved her family.

I think I truly started to love and appreciate her in ACoK, especially after her negotiation with Renly and Stannis

actually, pretty much same here. When we see her be mean to Jon I stared to not like her, but when I saw her with Robb and her anguish over losing the boys and her girls, it made me rethink her and appreciate that the Jon incident was pretty much a one-off. Jon never sits around think about how mean she was. He never thinks of her at all really. I think their relationship was more of mutual ignoring than outright hate at the end. His thought about, "one time that would have made me cry" (along those lines) was probably more that as a little boy he wanted a mom, and she couldn't be that mom. But really, I can't think of a single noble lady that would have accepted him to the level she did.

[Leif]

"Also I'll say Cat was mean to Jon if anyone can name me a character who would treat Jon like their own."

Ned.

Hah. I win. Yes.

[Dany Girl]

"Also I'll say Cat was mean to Jon if anyone can name me a character who would treat Jon like their own."

Ned.

Hah. I win. Yes.

how about another noble woman? Cersei, no. Lysa, no. Syleese, no. Maybe a Dornish lady would accept her husband's bastard, but other noble women, heck no.

[Leif]

how about another noble woman? Cersei, no. Lysa, no. Syleese, no. Maybe a Dornish lady would accept her husband's bastard, but other noble women, heck no.

That wasn't the request. Winner winner, lobster dinner.

[Pikachu101]

"Also I'll say Cat was mean to Jon if anyone can name me a character who would treat Jon like their own."

Ned.

Hah. I win. Yes.

I think it would be a totally different story if Jon was Cat's bastard and she dumped him on Ned

[Dany Girl]

That wasn't the request. Winner winner, lobster dinner.

that's why I posed a new question :)

gotta be clear on these things :)

[RoamingRonin]

I don't see Lady Stoneheart and Catelyn as the same person. Stoneheart isn't just Catelyn returned to life with a chip on her shoulder. I'd wonder if she would even be capable of loving her children if she saw them again. Or would she imprison them somewhere so that no harm could ever come to them like Baelor imprisoned his sisters in the Maidenvault?

[The Piece Maker]

Why did Cat tolerate Jon to the extent that she did? .

Do you think that she suggested that Jon be brought up along side her children and be given the same education and physical comforts? Do you think that it was her idea that he should live as a sibling with her children in such close proximity that she would see him every day and that from a very young age her own children would understand that their father had treated their mother with disrespect. What woman would choose that?

She had no choice. Ned imposed it on her. The only power that she had in her situation was to be nasty to an innocent child when she really should have angry with her husband. She choose to accept and love Ned and reject the boy in an ugly way. She choose to have a "happy" marriage at Jon's expense.

It's called transference.

She WAS only human.

[aedalia]

I like this thread, thanks OP.

It's made me think more about LS, specifically the quote where Cat pleads with Renly and Stannis to make peace. As much as I pity LS for becoming a tool of vengence, in a way, she's also become more powerful than Cat. Cat had to get other people to do what she thought was best since she was just a woman. No one would take a woman seriously. LS on the other hand gets it done on her own. The Brothers listen to her and obey her. It's kind of like she's living out Cat's fantasy of having actual control over situations on the same level as a man. Which is sort of a sad statement about women in Westeros.

[Pikachu101]

She had no choice. Ned imposed it on her. The only power that she had in her situation was to be nasty to an innocent child when she really should have angry with her husband. She choose to accept and love Ned and reject the boy in an ugly way. She choose to have a "happy" marriage at Jon's expense.

It's called transference.

She WAS only human.

1. She was never "nasty" she just ignored him

2. The best she can do in this situation is try and get on with her husband; he has the authority

3. She didn't reject him, rejection implies Cat had a duty to accept him, which she didn't.

4. Her happy marriage created a comfortable life for her, Ned and their five kids. It's funny but I don't remember Jon sulking about how Cat's happiness was at his expense. I do however remember him go on and on about how being a bastard made his life suck because he could never be in his siblings' world