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Christian discussion: Everyone welcome, but please respect the intent of the thread


MisterOJ

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I've thought a lot about starting this thread for the past couple days. I wasn't sure if I really wanted to or not, but I am going to give it a go.

Here's the thing: I would like this to be a thread where folks can come and discuss the Christian faith or post links to articles and blogs about faith that you find interesting - without having it devolve into a Christian vs. atheist confrontational debate about whether faith is a good thing or if the God really exists or what have you. For an example of what I am trying to avoid, please see The rise of the religious left in America thread.

I think genuine questions about the Christian faith would be great for this thread. But if you don't believe and you're just wanting to be confrontational - start another thread or just take it elsewhere. If you want to start a thread for atheist centered discussion, I promise we won't come into it and start proselytizing. :)

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I feel like I know who many of the board Christians are and have a good idea about your backgrounds, but a good way to start the thread might be just to post a little bit about yourself and your faith.

And since I started the thread, I'll go first.

I'm OJ. I'm currently serving as the Clerk of Session for my small Presbyterian (USA) Church in a small town in rural southern Kentucky. I've been a member of that church for about 4-5 years now. I feel like that is exactly where I am supposed to be, but I also feel like it took me a long time to get there.

I was raised in a smallish (it was big for the tiny community I grew up in though) Southern Baptist church. At the time (the late 70s, early 80s) the Southern Baptist church was much different than it is today. It was much more liberal and progressive. And then at some point when I was a kid, it started shifting to the very conservative denomination it is today. But really, when I went away to college, I pretty much started to question everything. I was never baptised (not because I didn't believe, but it's a long story) but I did believe much of what I was taught as a kid. Then I went away to college and started to question everything. A year or two after graduation, I married my college sweetheart, who was raised Roman Catholic.

We rarely went to church as a young married couple. I was pretty much propagandized against the RCC for most of my youth and refused to step foot in a Catholic church for mass. And she wasn't comfortable going to Southern Baptist churches. But, to her credit, she did attend a few services with me - which I give her lots of credit for. She did that for me despite knowing that I would never reciprocate by attending mass. Despite all that, I was an agnostic (at best) for several years. I also developed quite a bit of anger at organized religion in general.

Years passed. We had kids. We moved to the small town in which we current live. And at some point, we started talking about how it would probably be a good idea to start attending church as a family. I had no interest, but I could see the upside in it. Whenever we talked about where we might go, for some reason, we always mentioned wanting to try out the little Presbyterian church downtown. We both felt drawn to it.

And so, one Sunday, we went there to visit. And it was amazing. To this day, years later, I still can't quite describe it accurately. It was like going home to family after not seeing them for a long, long time. It just felt right. And I was blown away by the simple, yet moving service. Everything I didn't like about Baptist services didn't exist there. And the things that were there instead - like the communal confession and the profession of faith - really spoke to me and gave me a sense of peace and God's power that I never felt in a Baptist service.

After that first service, I knew we belonged there. (Now, after the very next Sunday of attending church there, I really questioned that, but that's a story for another time.) And I've been there ever since.

This is the time of year when we regularly miss 1-2 services each week to take our daughter to soccer tournaments. I'm always a little bummed out when we can't make it. But when we are back in service the next week - it's like going back home again. I truly love my church family. I'm so glad I found it and rediscovered my faith. Praise Jesus. :)

I feel like I rambled a lot there. Don't feel like you have to do the same. A simple: My name is "John and I'm a lifelong Methodist," will be perfect. But, I'd also love to hear other folks' faith journeys.

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I'm one of those Christians who pretty much has a constant crisis of faith. I'm perhaps overly-analytical, have studied a lot of history, and it's not difficult to stark making logical against the divinity of Christ or even God.

But I've finally gotten some peace with that by concluding that it really doesn't matter. The things Christ taught are so right on their own, that whether I believe he is divine or not ends up not mattering. At the very least, he was an extraordinary teacher, and the spiritual virtue of sharing that with others and having faith at the times I do (like right now) is worth it all anyway. That belief makes me a better person, and a better tool to work the things He taught.

My understanding of His message is that if I work to be a good Christian, and accept my occasional lack of faith as simply something I try to work with, that it will not end up mattering in the end. Because really, the reason to carry His message is not for the selfish reason of obtaining salvation, but rather because it is the right thing to do.

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MJ, I am glad that you started a thread as such. Often a religious thread, especially one about Christianity, would end up in shouting matches. I long for one that we can share our views from the biblical standpoint and also from world view.

I really miss Ser Cam.

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I don't want to go into detail about my beliefs because I fully expect to be jumped on and bashed into the ground by skeptics. But I am a Christian of the Apostolic Faith and I was saved on February 1, 2012 when I was 20 years old. That's as much as I feel I can divulge until I see this thread remain civil after extended discussion.

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OJ, this is going to sound strange. Also clerk of session for a small (about 20 regular members) Presbyterian Church (USA) that I have been a member of for around 7-8 years or so.

I'll prehaps divulge more detail in my spiritual history when I have more time, but I'll give a gist.

Raised in big Presbyterian church (USA) in eastern KY. Dad was more agnostic and never attended, my mom and older brother were very involved. I was involved more in the youth group and youth ministry up through high school, until my senior year my pastor started to pressure me to confess my faith in front of the congregation. I had already done my profession & baptism at church camp when I was 15 or so, but he didn't know about it, and it pissed me off that he was pressuring me to do it so I didn't bother to tell him. I feel that is a personal thing that the individual should decide to do, and that it should be genuine when done. Not just because your pastor wants you to. So anyway, he kept pushing, up towards high school graduation, and I came to youth group and other services less and less. My church presented seniors with personalized nice bibles upon graduation, and I showed up to get mine to make mom happy, but by that point I was pretty fed up with organized religion.

Went to college. More or less agnostic for many years... dabbled in and studied other religions of the world (wiccan, taoism, confucionism, Buddhism, Islam, Hindu, etc.), although all of them seemed to possess some Truths, they all seemed to get a lot wrong as well (from my own perspective, at leat). But mostly those years I would say I was somewhat spiritual but not religious at all.

I smoked pot, I experimented with psychadelics, cocaine, MDMA, pretty much everything. Until one day a friend offered me some oxycontin. I won't give you the gory details, but that lead to 10 years or so hardcore opiate use/addiction (rx painkillers and heroin). One day when I hit one of several rock bottoms, I fell on the ground, looking up at the sky in tears, and told God that I didn't know if it existed, listened, or even cared if it did listen, but I couldn't kick it on my own and I needed a miracle.

Events conspired within a month or so and I found myself in rehab. It took 3 years of in-patient and out-patient treatment and subsequent relapses to find one that worked for me, but that convinced me. That was my miracle. I truly believe God saved my life that day. Others can say it was concidence or my subconscious or whatever, but I believe it in my heart, and that is all that matters. I got involved in church and some online support groups. Been clean from the opiates since July 13, 2008. (I still have drinks fairly often, so I hesitate to say I'm "clean totally", but that is another topic)

Met my wonderful wife during those years and we got married and have 2 boys, 2 years and 5 years old. Ever since I got into recovery I would attend my mom's little Presbyterian church once in awhile for holidays and whatnot. They were very small and always bent over backwards to make me feel comfortable and welcome. So once the kids came along we just sort of unintentionally became more involved and found oursevles attending more often, until we were lead into leadership roles in our tiny church. I feel like God has lead us there, and to where I am today.

Not as brief as intended, but there it is. I'm not perfect, and neither is anyone else. But I try to let God lead my life, and I try to model my actions and attitudes towards others after Jesus Christ. I often succeed, and often do not. Some aspects of my life are hypocritical with my beliefs. But being aware of that and not pretending otherwise gives me a kind of peace.

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Mr. OJ,

Thanks for spearheading the discussion.

My road back to the RCC is an odd one, but not terribly unusual. My parents are lapsed Irish Catholics. They never took us to mass growing up and also never told their parents that they weren't raising us Catholic. All of our visits to our extended family were really awkward because of this. My grandmother was appalled to find out that I didn't know basic prayers and taught them to me on these visits. She was extremely devout. Until the day she died her Catholic book of prayers was the only book she read. She left the bible to the priests.

My father was asked repeatedly when my first communion would be and my father would answer, "Not yet." I think she allowed herself to believe we did things differently in Oregon rather than entertain the thought that my father had lost his faith. My mother's family is a loud, rambling, huge passel of "Cultural Catholics". I didn't realize the cultural differences in Catholic families until I was older. That difference brought me back to the church.

With no religious direction at home, I studied the bible with my best pal growing up. She was a Jehovah's Witness. My parents were not pleased. In my teens, the harsh literalism of Jehovah's witnesses lost it's appeal. I couldn't palate such a joyless religion so I pulled a 180 and started studying neo-paganism. Starhawk's books and "The White Goddess," appealed to the romantic angry little feminist teenaged girl that I had become. I was able to find several groups and go to some Sabbats. I still find neo-paganism to be a beautiful religion, but it feels like play-acting to me. I gave up on religion altogether for a while.

At 19 I moved to New Orleans. I have never felt so comfortable in an American city. I felt like I was at home immediately. For years I thought it was the South. Then I traveled around the South and I realized it was something else. It wasn't until I was in grad school away from New Orleans and walked into a Catholic church out of sheer homesickness that I realized what it was. New Orleans is a Catholic city. The loud, passionate people in the city are predominately Catholic. This brings a rich cultural tradition and an real joy of life that I recognized from my own family.

I started attending church in the mornings out of curiosity. As the rhythm of the Mass started to make sense to me I recognized aspects of my parents' morality that I had never understood. My sister and I had often been in trouble for things that made absolutely no sense to us as kids. My parents had had a secret rulebook that they didn't share with us. They didn't even realize it.

I realized that I had put my son in the same position. The city he grew up in and his family are Catholic at least by culture. I felt like I was doing him a disservice by not introducing him to this aspect of his family and his life. When we returned to New Orleans, I put him in Catholic school. He has been through first communion and confirmation. He doesn't practice, but he knows the Church is there. If he is in trouble anywhere in the world he can walk into a Catholic church and his family there will help him no matter what the problem is.

Meanwhile I attended RCIA. I still have not gone through confirmation. I have enough doubts and internal quarrels that I feel like I am not ready. I also know that I am a fully hypocritical Catholic and struggle with my own conscience about whether or not I am misrepresenting myself by quietly disagreeing with Church doctrine. I don't even think about it while attending Mass. Confirmation is something else altogether.

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OJ, this is going to sound strange. Also clerk of session for a small (about 20 regular members) Presbyterian Church (USA) that I have been a member of for around 7-8 years or so.

<snip>

Well, shit, dude. I mean, we're what? Two years apart in age? Grew up probably within 10 miles of each other (probably much less if you were to just draw a straight line from my homeplace to yours on a map) and now we're both Clerks of Session for the same church and wide up "finding" each other on this message board? Holy hell. What are the odds?

I want to say (light-heartedly) congratulations on achieving the eastern Kentucky stereotype and (with much respect and admiration) congratulations on pulling yourself up out of that shitty situation. Like I'm sure you do, I have plenty of childhood friends and even some family that are hooked on oxy and can't seem to break the cycle. I'm really glad that God helped you break free of it. It's destroyed way too many lives and way too many families back where we grew up.

Luckily (or by the grace of God, if you will) I never got into any of that shit. I tried pot in college and it never did anything for me and I never bothered trying anything harder than that. But, I was in a pretty shitty place spiritually for a good long time before I found my current church home. And that affected other parts of my life in a not-so-good way. There's no doubt in my mind that God led me to my church. There was no other reason for my (and my wife) choosing it. We were literally drawn to it and felt at home immediately.

Anyway, damn. That's really something.

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Meanwhile I attended RCIA. I still have not gone through confirmation. I have enough doubts and internal quarrels that I feel like I am not ready. I also know that I am a fully hypocritical Catholic and struggle with my own conscience about whether or not I am misrepresenting myself by quietly disagreeing with Church doctrine. I don't even think about it while attending Mass. Confirmation is something else altogether.

Isn't the rule that you're supposed to be confirmed before taking Communion? My wife and I attended a Catholic Church -- at least until the priest we liked left -- and though she is Catholic, I'm not. She always wanted me to take Communion but I figured their house, their rules.

Of course, thinking back on it, maybe it wasn't really their house at all.

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I don't want to go into detail about my beliefs because I fully expect to be jumped on and bashed into the ground by skeptics. But I am a Christian of the Apostolic Faith and I was saved on February 1, 2012 when I was 20 years old. That's as much as I feel I can divulge until I see this thread remain civil after extended discussion.

I get it and understand. I've been put through the ringer a time or two on this board too because of my faith. I have a feeling that this thread is going to be different though. Stick around. I expect great things.

And at some point, I really want to have a good discussion on here about what it means to be "saved." That's not a term I've ever heard used in the Presbyterian church, and I think we're better off because of it. :)

Mr. OJ,

Thanks for spearheading the discussion.

<snip>

You're very welcome. I am turning out to be very pleased that I did it. Hearing your story and Ned's story is food for my soul.

I started to ask you in the other thread after you shared a little of your background, if you'd ever considered any of the more mainline, Protestant churches? Like the Episcopalian Church, for example. I believe the worship service would be very similar to what you're used to in the RCC, but the church itself is much more liberal - allowing female and even gay clergy and also adopting same-sex marriage. I'd also put in a plug for the Presbyterian USA Church, since we're pretty awesome too. We're not quite there on same-sex marriage, though. But it's coming. And my wife, who grew up very much Catholic, enjoys the way we do service. It's a little different from mass, but there are lots of the same elements at the same time.

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Isn't the rule that you're supposed to be confirmed before taking Communion? My wife and I attended a Catholic Church -- at least until the priest we liked left -- and though she is Catholic, I'm not. She always wanted me to take Communion but I figured their house, their rules.

Of course, thinking back on it, maybe it wasn't really their house at all.

This is true. My parents had me and my sister baptized "just in case" and to send copies to our grandparents. This makes us both Catholic according to the Church. I had to do an examination of conscience and a blanket confession like Constantine. It's one of those loopholes that drive people nuts about the RCC. I kind of like all the little rules of magic, but I can see how they would really annoy non-Catholics. Unbaptized persons over seven do a year of RCIA and have baptism, first communion and confirmation together. My son did this after his first year of Catholic school. His father's mother is very devout and cried through the entire service. I'll cherish that memory for the rest of my life. It was a beautiful day.

You're very welcome. I am turning out to be very pleased that I did it. Hearing your story and Ned's story is food for my soul.

<snip snip>

I started to ask you in the other thread after you shared a little of your background, if you'd ever considered any of the more mainline, Protestant churches? Like the Episcopalian Church

I was waiting for this question and it goes with FLOW's last comment. Idealistically I would probably be more comfortable in an Episcopalian Church. The Protestant Churches don't feel the same. Even if the ritual is the same the people are different. There are also a lot of Catholic churches with priests who talk about the love that Jesus had for all of mankind and how we as human beings should reach towards God by helping one another.

My devout mother-in-law is a foaming liberal. She attacks the homophobia in the Church like a battering ram. She also participates in the choir and is spending her retirement working on missions of mercy all over the country. The Church has room for her, it has room for me too. Newsletters like National Catholic Reporter cater to liberal Catholics. We are a huge group. Lots of support there.

The RCC is my house too. Part of Church doctrine is defined by the faith of the people. There are a LOT of people in the Catholic Church. I hope if more and more liberal Catholics stay, the Church will grow enough to truly be One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Church is slow to change, but look at the great waves our new Pope is causing already. I think real change will occur by less fracturing instead of more. I hope that the Church will move away from bigotry and towards human dignity. I have faith in God, but only hope for my Church. In the meantime, I'll go enjoy myself every week, try to be a better person, confess my shortcomings and eat my cracker.

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I was waiting for this question and it goes with FLOW's last comment. Idealistically I would probably be more comfortable in an Episcopalian Church. The Protestant Churches don't feel the same. Even if the ritual is the same the people are different. There are also a lot of Catholic churches with priests who talk about the love that Jesus had for all of mankind and how we as human beings should reach towards God by helping one another.

My devout mother-in-law is a foaming liberal. She attacks the homophobia in the Church like a battering ram. She also participates in the choir and is spending her retirement working on missions of mercy all over the country. The Church has room for her, it has room for me too. Newsletters like National Catholic Reporter cater to liberal Catholics. We are a huge group. Lots of support there.

The RCC is my house too. Part of Church doctrine is defined by the faith of the people. There are a LOT of people in the Catholic Church. I hope if more and more liberal Catholics stay, the Church will grow enough to truly be One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Church is slow to change, but look at the great waves our new Pope is causing already. I think real change will occur by less fracturing instead of more. I hope that the Church will move away from bigotry and towards human dignity. I have faith in God, but only hope for my Church. In the meantime, I'll go enjoy myself every week, try to be a better person, confess my shortcomings and eat my cracker.

I get that. And I was sort of expecting that answer. Which is cool. I can understand that. Like I said, my wife grew up Catholic. She's from Louisville - which, like New Orleans, is a VERY Catholic city.

When we were still newly married we moved around to several different towns around Kentucky while we were getting settled in our respective careers. Every once in a while, my wife would start feeling "homesick" as you called it and want to attend mass. So, she would. We never lived in Louisville - or any other city or town that had much of a Catholic population. And she never got the same feeling of being at home as she would in just about any Catholic church in Louisville. Both her sisters went through the same thing. They moved away to smaller communities without much of a Catholic presence - and neither could find a Catholic church they liked. One of her sisters passed away a few years back, but the other is now a very devout Methodist.

Knowing my wife's experience (and her sisters) and now hearing about yours, I just wonder if there is something special about these large Catholic communities?

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I get it and understand. I've been put through the ringer a time or two on this board too because of my faith. I have a feeling that this thread is going to be different though. Stick around. I expect great things.

And at some point, I really want to have a good discussion on here about what it means to be "saved." That's not a term I've ever heard used in the Presbyterian church, and I think we're better off because of it. :)

You're very welcome. I am turning out to be very pleased that I did it. Hearing your story and Ned's story is food for my soul.

I started to ask you in the other thread after you shared a little of your background, if you'd ever considered any of the more mainline, Protestant churches? Like the Episcopalian Church, for example. I believe the worship service would be very similar to what you're used to in the RCC, but the church itself is much more liberal - allowing female and even gay clergy and also adopting same-sex marriage. I'd also put in a plug for the Presbyterian USA Church, since we're pretty awesome too. We're not quite there on same-sex marriage, though. But it's coming. And my wife, who grew up very much Catholic, enjoys the way we do service. It's a little different from mass, but there are lots of the same elements at the same time.

I think I feel better about sharing now, thank you for the platform to do it on.

I was raised in the church, in the Apostolic Faith. My Grandmother made sure we attended church weekly at Akron Apostolic Temple. I was fairly uninterested as a small child but my Grandma had me reading the Bible by 8 years old. I was baptized between 9-11 years old.

Those years weren't very eventful for me in terms of questioning organized religion. My middle teenage years is when I would say the questions began. I was expelled my freshman year of high school and ended up being forced to move to Mississippi at that time. I had already flunked out in seventh grade, so this was the second time I had to repeat a grade.

I was 16 when I began 9th grade for the second time. My home life during this time was not what I'd call ideal. My uncle that I was living with in Mississippi had previously been a well known boxer in the Northeast Ohio area, and the man had a temper. Everything I did would set him off and he'd beat me bloody at least once a month. He forced me into the boxing gym every week to try to mold me into his image of what I should be.

Being subjected to that enough, eventually I stopped attending school and so, at age 17, I flunked 9th grade for the second time. All this was in addition to being absolutely homesick and not having many friends. People didn't like me because I was from the North and they told me as much. I got jumped a few times down there.

Eventually, I stopped going home and I just kind of talked my way into a place to sleep with someone from around the apartment complex. My uncle found me eventually and returned me to Ohio to live. When I got back, I was a 17 year old high school freshman who had been subjected to more than a year of physical and psychological abuse. We didn't go to church at all and so I was not very well connected with my faith.

I asked myself why any God who truly loved me would let me go through everything I went through when I lived there. I was very suicidal. I probably shouldn't be alive right now but I was too afraid to actually kill myself. As an alternative, I rejected God as He has been presented to me. I was probably best described as an Agnostic Theist at that point, upon reflection.

Anyways, I tried to live my life as a completely secular man, unconcerned with the opinions of a remorseless God who allowed me to be pushed to the point of nearly taking my own life.

I wanted to turn to womanizing as a vice, but it was always too far against my personal values to just go around having sex with whatever woman would consent. So I sought out approval from women in the form of a romantic relationship.

Failed relationship after failed relationship, with pre-marital sex being involved in those relationships, caused me to question whether sex should be done in the way I was doing it; that is, as something that is socially acceptable to do regardless of relationship status.

Meanwhile, I was also enrolled in school yet again. It meant a lot to me to try to get my high school diploma in spite of God, from my perspective, not wanting me to.

If I could find love and if I could graduate, it would be the ultimate screw you to God, as far as I was concerned. I started getting my grades up and I started trying to find a girl who wanted the same things I wanted. I was a terrible student and I had to accept that, but I wasn't going to allow that to stop me from passing.

Ohio has the "Ohio Graduation Test" , which is the state exam we all have to pass to graduate high school. You can only take it twice a year. I failed the math and science portion of that test five and four times respectively.

This pushed me as close to the edge as much as I could have been pushed without going over. Academics were failing. Love life was failing. I was nothing and I was nobody. Just a hallow existence nobody really gave a damn about. So I did what I thought was my last option: I turned back to organized religion.

I started going to a non-denominational church with my cousin and it was there I learned that you can be young and be devout. The young Christians there loved God but I left that church because I didn't agree with the teachings of the pastor about the only requirement for salvation being that you love The Lord.

I eventually started going back to church with my Grandma at her new church where my cousin presided, First Apostolic Faith Church. This was also uneventful and I found myself bored an disinterested in that church, to the point I just went just to keep her from blowing up. I left that church eventually too.

Then, I met a young lady through mutual friends. She introduced me to her home church, Abundant Life. That was when everything began changing for me. My faith began to be restored as the pastor was brutally honest about what it took to obtain salvation: receiving the baptism in Jesus name, confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, speaking in tongues as the spirit of God gives utterance and living your life in such a manner that it would be a testimony to His goodness and His mercy and His grace.

I was eventually able to settle into the idea of God being real and give myself over to Him. I'd already received the baptism, so after I confessed who my Lord and savior was, I had to terry for the Holy Ghost, which I did on February 1, 2012.

After receiving the precious gift, I finally managed to pass my Math OGT ( I'd found out that passed the Science OGT the previous January) in March.

I finished my High School credits and on June 13, I finally graduated from High School, at age 21. I began attending Kent State that August and I met my girlfriend of 6 months and counting this past January.

For some, all of those things happening for me can be chalked up to my own hard work and resilience, but I promise it was something more. This was God. Nothing changed for me until I have my life over to Him. And I am eternally grateful.

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That's a powerful story LB. Big respect to you for finally finishing high school like that. That's really admirable and impressive.

There's things I'd like to say to you, but I'm not quite sure how to say them. This is something I'll need to think and even pray about. I suspect we see things very differently when it comes to our faith. But, you're still my brother in Christ and I am glad for that. :)

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That's a powerful story LB. Big respect to you for finally finishing high school like that. That's really admirable and impressive.

There's things I'd like to say to you, but I'm not quite sure how to say them. This is something I'll need to think and even pray about. I suspect we see things very differently when it comes to our faith. But, you're still my brother in Christ and I am glad for that. :)

thank you, it means a lot. If you disagree with me on matters of scripture, don't hesitate to share. We're brothers in Christ and God isn't going to smite people who love Him simply for disagreements over matters of His word.
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OJ, this is going to sound strange. Also clerk of session for a small (about 20 regular members) Presbyterian Church (USA) that I have been a member of for around 7-8 years or so.
If you are not aware, there are several Presbyterians (PCUSA) on this board. Ormond is probably our most famous one, being a vocal and public advocate for LGBTQ issues in the church. I'm a functional one by membership, enculturation and seminary education.

I started to ask you in the other thread after you shared a little of your background, if you'd ever considered any of the more mainline, Protestant churches? Like the Episcopalian Church, for example. I believe the worship service would be very similar to what you're used to in the RCC, but the church itself is much more liberal - allowing female and even gay clergy and also adopting same-sex marriage. I'd also put in a plug for the Presbyterian USA Church, since we're pretty awesome too. We're not quite there on same-sex marriage, though. But it's coming. And my wife, who grew up very much Catholic, enjoys the way we do service. It's a little different from mass, but there are lots of the same elements at the same time.

The PCUSA is certainly not as quick as the Episcopal or United Church of Christ when it comes to LGBTQ issues, but when progress is made in the PCUSA, it feels like genuine progress due to the republican nature of the General Assembly, such that it feels like a legitimate change from the people and not a top-down change. It's clear from studies in the General Assembly that seminarians and younger congregants are far more liberal on these issues. So it's not a matter of if these changes happen, but when.
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<Wow Baelish, just Wow>

My heart is broken for what you suffered during your teens.

I am blown away by your accomplishments. Not the least of which was finding your way back to God. Congratulations on completing HS and starting college. I hope for you and yours that the best is yet to come. Like Mr. OJ, I'd like to respond more personally in a PM if I may. Until I have the right words I can offer you my tears and tell you that you have moved me to the core.

At your invitation to ask questions, I shall totally change the subject:

What is "terry for the Holy Ghost?" From the context it sounds like a powerful experience but I am completely unfamiliar.

I get that. And I was sort of expecting that answer. Which is cool. I can understand that. Like I said, my wife grew up Catholic. She's from Louisville - which, like New Orleans, is a VERY Catholic city.

Knowing my wife's experience (and her sisters) and now hearing about yours, I just wonder if there is something special about these large Catholic communities?

The best way to find out is to come and visit! I can define the terms by comparison to my own family and only for my own city.

There is a sensuality that is missing from other communities. Many people find it overwhelming. New Orleanians, like my family, are LOUD people who love music. This addresses the ears.

An appreciation of beauty is an integral part of Catholic culture, people of both sexes down here dress beautifully with a flair for the flamboyant that would be considered garish to other parts of the country. Buildings are decorated similarly. These things address the eyes.

A love of God's abundance when it is available makes cooking and eating a fine art down here. Children are brought up to be able to sit politely through a three hour dinner by the time they are 3 years old. These rituals satisfy the mouth and nose.

Families are large and room is scarce. According to the 1940 census archive, a family of 6 once lived in half of my house. At the time, that half of my house was about 800 square feet. I think this is the reason why some Catholics (my family) and many New Orleanians are comfortable in a small room with 4 or 5 conversations happening at the same time. A new person entering the room can be greeted with a hug or touch without adding to the general din. This is my pet theory about why people here are much more physically affectionate than they are elsewhere. This addresses the skin.

On top of that, the culture here is so strong, Lundi Gras, Mardi Gras, and Ash Wednesday are holidays. Schools are closed and many companies change the federal calendar to accommodate those three days. Many non-Catholics in this city give things up for Lent, such is the pressure that the RC has on the flow of the calendar. Schools are closed for Holy week so kids can celebrate the Passion. Most employers here wouldn't bat an eye to release people from work early to assist or attend services during the Easter season.

Shared background gives all of us a lot in common. Immigrant experience and marginalization by American Culture. Solidarity against the rest of the US is the result.

In addition to that, even non-Catholics know SOMETHING is different and are very defensive about the differences between New Orleans and the rest of the US. As I mentioned in a previous thread, we get some strange Protestants down here that come to protest against the Catholic Church (Mardi Gras) or homosexuality (Southern Decadance). Everyone bands together to protect our own when this happens regardless of individual feelings.

There are other differences, these are the ones I have attributed specifically to Catholic culture.

Edit: irregardless is not a word. (Going to write lines.)

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My heart is broken for what you suffered during your teens.

I am blown away by your accomplishments. Not the least of which was finding your way back to God. Congratulations on completing HS and starting college. I hope for you and yours that the best is yet to come. Like Mr. OJ, I'd like to respond more personally in a PM if I may. Until I have the right words I can offer you my tears and tell you that you have moved me to the core.

At your invitation to ask questions, I shall totally change the subject:

What is "terry for the Holy Ghost?" From the context it sounds like a powerful experience but I am completely unfamiliar.

The best way to find out is to come and visit! I can define the terms by comparison to my own family and only for my own city.

There is a sensuality that is missing from other communities. Many people find it overwhelming. New Orleanians, like my family, are LOUD people who love music. This addresses the ears.

An appreciation of beauty is an integral part of Catholic culture, people of both sexes down here dress beautifully with a flair for the flamboyant that would be considered garish to other parts of the country. Buildings are decorated similarly. These things address the eyes.

A love of God's abundance when it is available makes cooking and eating a fine art down here. Children are brought up to be able to sit politely through a three hour dinner by the time they are 3 years old. These rituals satisfy the mouth and nose.

Families are large and room is scarce. According to the 1940 census archive, a family of 6 once lived in half of my house. At the time, that half of my house was about 800 square feet. I think this is the reason why some Catholics (my family) and many New Orleanians are comfortable in a small room with 4 or 5 conversations happening at the same time. A new person entering the room can be greeted with a hug or touch without adding to the general din. This is my pet theory about why people here are much more physically affectionate than they are elsewhere. This addresses the skin.

On top of that, the culture here is so strong, Lundi Gras, Mardi Gras, and Ash Wednesday are holidays. Schools are closed and many companies change the federal calendar to accommodate those three days. Many non-Catholics in this city give things up for Lent, such is the pressure that the RC has on the flow of the calendar. Schools are closed for Holy week so kids can celebrate the Passion. Most employers here wouldn't bat an eye to release people from work early to assist or attend services during the Easter season.

Shared background gives all of us a lot in common. Immigrant experience and marginalization by American Culture. Solidarity against the rest of the US is the result.

In addition to that, even non-Catholics know SOMETHING is different and are very defensive about the differences between New Orleans and the rest of the US. As I mentioned in a previous thread, we get some strange Protestants down here that come to protest against the Catholic Church (Mardi Gras) or homosexuality (Southern Decadance). Everyone bands together to protect our own when this happens irregardless of individual feelings.

There are other differences, these are the ones I have attributed specifically to Catholic culture.

Thank you for your well wishes. :) Of course you can PM me about anything you'd like to discuss privately. To answer what you did ask, to terry for the Holy Ghost is indeed powerful. What you're doing is repetitively and persistently shouting praises up to God with the highest praise you can give Him, "hallelujah". You do this until you know God has taken over your mind, body and soul and He puts an unknown tongue inside of you that you begin to speak uncontrollably. This is a sign that the Holy Ghost is indeed present.
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I fell on the ground, looking up at the sky in tears, and told God that I didn't know if it existed, listened, or even cared if it did listen, but I couldn't kick it on my own and I needed a miracle.

Events conspired within a month or so and I found myself in rehab. It took 3 years of in-patient and out-patient treatment and subsequent relapses to find one that worked for me, but that convinced me. That was my miracle. I truly believe God saved my life that day.

I think so too. I say so without downplaying the incredibly hard work you did on your own, by yourself and for yourself to get well. I am truly in awe of your accomplishment. I have witnessed this firsthand recently. As an observer, it looks undo-able. I don't think anyone escapes that kind of addiction without Grace. Thanks for talking about this.

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I was born into and raised in the Catholic Church. I spent twelve years in Catholic school and I attend mass just about every sunday. My father is really devout and as is my mother. I've always kind of wrestled with my faith and at one point I had thought about joining the Franciscan Order. I've always wanted to be daddy and not Father though.

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