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Could Cersei have always had it in for the Starks?


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#1 Indigo Cardinal

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:04 PM

Hello all--new poster, lurked for awhile searching for this topic before posting (didn't find it, so if it's a repeat, sorry.)

I'd been re-reading the books, and had gotten to Kevan Lannister's quote about Lyanna Stark being beautiful, but Cersei being more so. Now, obviously, Kevan's biased, but it got me to thinking--for all of Cersei's famed beauty, she essentially 'lost out' to Lyanna Stark twice. Cersei was all but promised by her family that she'd be the bride of Rhaegar--and that didn't happen. But then Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna--whether she was willing or not seems up for dispute, but the singers turned it into a romantic love story of how Rhaegar and Robert went to war for love of Lyanna. Cersei did eventually marry the king--Robert--but it was always made painfully obvious to her that Robert was still in love with Lyanna, and not with Cersei (so again, Cersei 'loses' to Lyanna).

Given that Cersei isn't the most stable of personalities in the first place, getting emotionally bitch-slapped with the realization that she meant nothing at all to Rhaegar (the King who should have been) and very little to Robert (the King who was), I'd think this would play further into unhinging her a bit, maybe congealing into a grudge against the Stark family in general--she obviously can't take her anger out on Lyanna, who is now dead, so her hatred transfers to the remaining family members.

Bizarrely enough, thinking about this almost made me feel sorry for Cersei--being 'rejected' like this twice, and over the same woman both times, would really have to be a blow to her self-esteeem.

#2 Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:06 PM

Ikr its sad she was rejected twice /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />

#3 Cyvasse Khal

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:15 PM

Welcome to the forums Indigo! /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Yes I think pre Ned becoming Hand, she did already have a bit of a chip on her shoulder about the Starks, and the whole Lyanna situation most likely wounded her pride and is a contributing factor to her irrational and unstable behaviour now. Would be interesting to learn a bit more about her growing up in Casterly Rock. I wonder if she had any previous encounters with Stark or north-men as a child. She seemed to complain a lot when Robert dragged the whole family to Winterfell in GoT to ask Ned to be Hand.

#4 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 12:04 AM

People pity Cersei because she got her feelings hurt? Did you all forget her victims sent to Qyburn, Robert's bastards and the countless dwarves she had killed?

#5 SeanF

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 01:36 AM

Pre-AGOT I don't think Cersei thought anything about the Starks. Her willingness to let Ned return North, after Robert's death, and later to spare his life, suggests she had no personal animus against them.

#6 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 01:59 AM

Pre-AGOT I don't think Cersei thought anything about the Starks. Her willingness to let Ned return North, after Robert's death, and later to spare his life, suggests she had no personal animus against them.

Or because she didn't want the North as an enemy

#7 TheButcherCrow

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 02:05 AM

I always got the feeling that there is animosity between House Stark & House Lannister that goes beyond anything we have seen. The way that the northmen talk about the Lannisters suggests that untrustworthiness and Lannister are synonymous in The North. Just a feeling btw, no substantial evidence.

#8 StannisBamfatheon

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 02:12 AM

Ikr its sad she was rejected twice /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />


Well in hindsight rejecting Cersei is a great call, in the words of her own uncle she's as unfit a ruler as she is a mother.


As to the OP I wouldn't put it past her to hold the grudge, she never forgets a slight real or imagined. It certainly plays into her hatred of the starks but it never could have come to Ned's Death and further stark bloodshed without her awful hellspawn Joffrey making the call on the sept.

#9 Toxspecific

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 02:44 AM

Ikr its sad she was rejected twice /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />


Poor tragic Cersei, always the victim /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />

I think she always had it for Lyanna Stark, and for the rest of the world in general. She probably didn't know much about the Starks before Ned went to KL, beyond what was probably the typical Southerners view of the Starks; grim Northerners who don't do much apart from sit in the snow and be grim. I can easily see Cersei having this view of them.

#10 StannisBamfatheon

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 02:49 AM

Poor tragic Cersei, always the victim /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />

I think she always had it for Lyanna Stark, and for the rest of the world in general. She probably didn't know much about the Starks before Ned went to KL, beyond what was probably the typical Southerners view of the Starks; grim Northerners who don't do much apart from sit in the snow and be grim. I can easily see Cersei having this view of them.


I know, poor tragic Cersei! Born into the richest and most powerful family in the 7 kingdoms, never having to work a day in her life, murderer, treating 99% of people in her life like a contemptible bitch. I can't hold back the tears man. She's just a beautiful lion who deserves our support /crying.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crying:' /> /crying.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crying:' /> /crying.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crying:' />

Edited by StannisBamfatheon, 25 August 2013 - 02:50 AM.


#11 Toxspecific

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 02:51 AM

I know, poor tragic Cersei! Born into the richest and most powerful family in the 7 kingdoms, never having to work a day in her life, murderer, treating 99% of people in her life like a contemptible bitch. I can't hold back the tears man. She's just a beautiful lion who deserves our support /crying.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crying:' /> /crying.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crying:' /> /crying.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crying:' />


Who couldn't love this beautiful soul? Brb man, I'm getting the feels again :'(

#12 Gurkhal

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:01 AM

Who couldn't love this beautiful soul? Brb man, I'm getting the feels again :'(


Yes, stupid, evil Cersei who was married by her father to an abusive husband and lived with it for ten years, who by the nature of her gender was denied every choice in shaping her own life and always had a man with legal authority over her, Stupid, evil Cersei who tried to change any of it. Why can't she just be a good woman and understand that a woman's happiness comes from obeying her husband and father without question? Why, you vile evil woman, can't you grasp such basic truths?

#13 Toxspecific

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:08 AM

She was stupid and evil. Willing to kill her friend after hearing a prophecy, willing to mistreat her own brother from when he was an infant because she heard a prophecy, continued her sexual affair with her brother before and after marrying Robert and then had the audacity to be angry when Robert mentioned Lyanna's name when they were having sex.

Her whole mentality was that the world should love her while she continues to shit on it.

#14 SeanF

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:10 AM

I always got the feeling that there is animosity between House Stark & House Lannister that goes beyond anything we have seen. The way that the northmen talk about the Lannisters suggests that untrustworthiness and Lannister are synonymous in The North. Just a feeling btw, no substantial evidence.


There's no feud between the Houses. I think Ned despises Jaime for killing Aerys, and Tywin for the murder of Elia and her two children. But, in general, they don't come into contact with each other.

#15 StannisBamfatheon

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:22 AM

Yes, stupid, evil Cersei who was married by her father to an abusive husband and lived with it for ten years, who by the nature of her gender was denied every choice in shaping her own life and always had a man with legal authority over her, Stupid, evil Cersei who tried to change any of it. Why can't she just be a good woman and understand that a woman's happiness comes from obeying her husband and father without question? Why, you vile evil woman, can't you grasp such basic truths?


That line right there is totally bogus. And if you don't think Cersei is evil, myopic, and incompetent we haven't been reading the same books.

#16 Toxspecific

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:27 AM

Exactly. And Cersei didn't deserve anything from Robert in their marriage when she continued sleeping with Jaime before and after she got married, pardon me for saying this twice. How can anybody who doesn't have a really screwed up view of rights actually want their partner to be good while they are pretty much the worst possible spouse themselves?

Cersei started the cheating in the marriage before Robert did.

#17 Dire-Lion

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:35 AM

Wait are you talking about the Cersei that is herself sexist, the one that constantly uses sex to get her way, or some magical victim! Cersei that doesn't exist in the books?

#18 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:45 AM

Yes, stupid, evil Cersei who was married by her father to an abusive husband and lived with it for ten years, who by the nature of her gender was denied every choice in shaping her own life and always had a man with legal authority over her, Stupid, evil Cersei who tried to change any of it. Why can't she just be a good woman and understand that a woman's happiness comes from obeying her husband and father without question? Why, you vile evil woman, can't you grasp such basic truths?

lmao she didn't try to change anything. And until you can give a legitimate defense for her sending people to Qyburn the argument that she is evil will always be objective.

#19 Grody Brody

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:47 AM

Yes, stupid, evil Cersei who was married by her father to an abusive husband and lived with it for ten years, who by the nature of her gender was denied every choice in shaping her own life and always had a man with legal authority over her, Stupid, evil Cersei who tried to change any of it. Why can't she just be a good woman and understand that a woman's happiness comes from obeying her husband and father without question? Why, you vile evil woman, can't you grasp such basic truths?


It's tough to be a woman in Westeros, no doubt. But Maege Mormont made it work, and so Olenna Tyrell. And probably some others that I can't think of right now. Cersei's problems stem not from her gender but from her idiocy, vanity and evil.

There's no feud between the Houses. I think Ned despises Jaime for killing Aerys, and Tywin for the murder of Elia and her two children. But, in general, they don't come into contact with each other.


I get the feeling that the Lannisters are generally frowned upon, in private, but that they're rich and powerful enough that nobody says anything. The path Tywin took to bring his house back to glory was slick with blood: the Reynes, the Tarbecks, Princess Elia and her children; not to mention the message it sends that he accepts the fealty of men like Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch. Word of their adventures must surely have spread, and it all adds up to a house built on blood and cruelty.

In the TV series Tyrion says something like, "every time we destroy an enemy, we create two more," and I think that's the result of Tywin's attempts at reputation management. Again, in the TV series, that conversation Tywin has with Jaime while he's skinning a stag showed a man who cared more about instilling fear than anything else. When Jaime says "it wouldn't have been clean" to kill an injured Ned, Tywin tells him he's too worried about what other people think: "A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." Jaime throws that line back at him when Tywin is worried that Tyrion's imprisonment is costing the Lannisters respect, and Tywin's response is telling: "That's not an opinion, that's a fact! If another house can sieze one of our own... with impunity, then we are no longer a house to be feared."

It's an interesting worldview: honour is a weakness, and fear is the only thing that's real. It leads the Lannisters back into power and prominence, no question, but I think it probably costs them more respect in the long run than it ever gained them. Who in Westeros would be sad to see them go? Contrast that with the Starks, who are all but extinguished at this point, and still manage to command the respect of the North. So while there's no feud per se, and perhaps no direct animosity, they're not a house that inspires love or warm feelings.

I fear I've wandered off-topic though, sorry!

#20 Ser Knute

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:50 AM

While the slights against her are compelling, one can't ignore the possibilities of why. Perhaps it wasn't her physical beauty or any lack thereof, but more her inner ugliness?

She embodies the notion of "entitled" completely. For all her, I am lion hear me roar outward persona, she seems a coward by her actions. Sitting on the IT with a bottle of sweetsleep? prepared to give it to Tommen and herself rather than facing the enemy should they prevail does not evoke thoughts of courage as we would associate with her House.

Now I do empathize with the fact that she believes she should've been a man since she does live in a time where custom primarily has women being subservient to men. However, that doesn't absolve her from how she acts despite that.

She lives as if she's beyond reproach. When Cersei and Jaime are found together playing come into my castle by Johanna and told never to do it again, does she obey? Nope. When she plots against Margaery because she thinks she secretly has lovers and is due to marry a boy who's balls probably haven't even dropped yet, does she reflect on her own sexuality and choices to see parallels? Nope, she condemns Margaery straight away, all the while knowing she wasn't even true to her own husband. When the High Septon lays out her crimes, initially she throws a fit and acts as if, how dare you accuse me and tries to deny.

When the fruits of her many 'labors' turn sour and her machinations come back to bite her in the @ss what does she do? She defers to men (Jaime and Kevan). Can you say having your cake and eating it to? I can.

She's deluded. In almost every way, her actions lead to her own downfall. Talk about a serious dose of comeuppance... she fully deserves it.