Could Cersei have always had it in for the Starks?

[TheButcherCrow]

She embodies the notion of "entitled" completely. For all her, I am lion hear me roar outward persona, she seems a coward by her actions. Sitting on the IT with a bottle of sweetsleep? prepared to give it to Tommen and herself rather than facing the enemy should they prevail does not evoke thoughts of courage as we would associate with her House.

Apologies for being "that guy" but the bolded bit only happened on the show not in the books. Tommen wasn't even in KL in the books. Also it's a pretty bad example, Stannis would have burned her & Tommen, it's actually quite an endearing Cersei moment... even if it didn't happen :leaving:

[Toxspecific]

'I'm going to continue sleeping with my brother after I get married, but my husband better not cheat on me!' One does not simply defend Cersei.

[Arya kiddin']

The regal blonde green eyed lady gets rejected twice by the prince over some wild wolf girl - yes that pricks a lot.

[Valandui]

I always got the feeling that there is animosity between House Stark & House Lannister that goes beyond anything we have seen. The way that the northmen talk about the Lannisters suggests that untrustworthiness and Lannister are synonymous in The North. Just a feeling btw, no substantial evidence.

I think a lot of it has to do with they way Robert's Rebellion played out. The Lannisters basically waited until the whole thing was over while they were fighting and dying and then swooped in and took all of the glory. This combined with the fact that the North seems distrustful of southerners in general could explain a lot of it.

[SeanF]

It's tough to be a woman in Westeros, no doubt. But Maege Mormont made it work, and so Olenna Tyrell. And probably some others that I can't think of right now. Cersei's problems stem not from her gender but from her idiocy, vanity and evil.

I get the feeling that the Lannisters are generally frowned upon, in private, but that they're rich and powerful enough that nobody says anything. The path Tywin took to bring his house back to glory was slick with blood: the Reynes, the Tarbecks, Princess Elia and her children; not to mention the message it sends that he accepts the fealty of men like Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch. Word of their adventures must surely have spread, and it all adds up to a house built on blood and cruelty.

In the TV series Tyrion says something like, "every time we destroy an enemy, we create two more," and I think that's the result of Tywin's attempts at reputation management. Again, in the TV series, that conversation Tywin has with Jaime while he's skinning a stag showed a man who cared more about instilling fear than anything else. When Jaime says "it wouldn't have been clean" to kill an injured Ned, Tywin tells him he's too worried about what other people think: "A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the

sheep." Jaime throws that line back at him when Tywin is worried that Tyrion's imprisonment is costing the Lannisters respect, and Tywin's response is telling: "That's not an opinion, that's a fact! If another house can sieze one of our own... with impunity, then we are no longer a house to be feared."

It's an interesting worldview: honour is a weakness, and fear is the only thing that's real. It leads the Lannisters back into power and prominence, no question, but I think it probably costs them more respect in

the long run than it ever gained them. Who in Westeros would be sad to see them go? Contrast that with the Starks, who are all but extinguished at this point, and still manage to command the respect of the North. So while there's no feud per se, and perhaps no direct animosity, they're not a house that inspires love or warm feelings.

I fear I've wandered off-topic though, sorry!

I think that's right. If the Lannisters were overthrown and in hiding, I don't think they'd have people like Lord Manderly, the Glovers, the Mormonts, and the Mountain Clans fighting to restore them to power for love of them.

[zamieo]

Well, maybe, but not towards Lyanna, I'd reckon. I think she might've (notice the might've) held a grudge against Ned for helping Robert in the rebellion (let's face it; without Ned and the North, Robert's Rebellion would've ended swiftly, and not in Robert's favor), indirectly helping him kill Rhaegar and leading to him being crowned the king of Westeros.

I should add that I personally think GRRM changed Cersei's feelings towards Robert from what they were originally going to be. I don't think she was originally meant to loathe him, just have zero respect for him because of his lack of talent for ruling as well as being constantly drunk. I think her being in love with Rhaegar and all that was kind of an afterthought, but this is purely speculation on my part, carry on :-)

[Toxspecific]

Would Robert's rebellion really have ended swiftly if the North didn't help him? He still had the Vale, the Stormlands and soon the Riverlands thanks to Jon Arryn marrying Lysa Tully.

[Sansa_Stark]

I love how people think that Cersei being a victim justifies her being a victimizer.

[Toxspecific]

I love how people think that Cersei being a victim justifies her being a victimizer.

Yeah, it doesn't. But she isn't really that much a victim either. Like I already stated she started cheating on Robert right when they were married (sex with Jaime on the morning of the wedding, or the night before, can't remember exactly) and then whined when Robert cheated on her.

[TheButcherCrow]

I love how people think that Cersei being a victim justifies her being a victimizer.

:bowdown: Well said.

[Gurkhal]

I may have a missed a post or two now, but give me a heads up if I did and I'll try and make a reply to them. :)

She was stupid and evil. Willing to kill her friend after hearing a prophecy, willing to mistreat her own brother from when he was an infant because she heard a prophecy, continued her sexual affair with her brother before and after marrying Robert and then had the audacity to be angry when Robert mentioned Lyanna's name when they were having sex.

Her whole mentality was that the world should love her while she continues to shit on it.

No, her whole mentality was that she should be allowed the same freedoms that men are allowed while still being a woman. Lords are allowed to sire bastards and keep women on the side without much of a fuss, so why can't she? Most of what she does that I can think of are things that men are allowed to do without people going nuts of over it.

Also when you are having a marriage night its kind of an asshole move to whisper another woman's name to your wife, same with raping her.

lmao she didn't try to change anything. And until you can give a legitimate defense for her sending people to Qyburn the argument that she is evil will always be objective.

And in my opinion she tries to change a lot, although it is not very successful.

And no, that she sends people to Qyburn is wrong however your or mine subjective views of this does not make it objective. Although I agree with you that it is wrong to send people to Qyburn.

I love how people think that Cersei being a victim justifies her being a victimizer.

I love that too. Almost as much as I love to hear long character-bashing threads where the aspect that Cersei was both a victimizer AND a victim is ignored in favor of just bashing her. But I will grant you that its an improvement over the kind of stuff that went on when I first came to the forums.

[Toxspecific]

You are really going to try to defend Cersei?

It is an asshole name to mention another woman's name while consummating your marriage, yeah, but isn't it a sort of asshole thing to do to cheat on your husband before he does any of this and then actually have the audacity to be angry at him for him mentioning a name? Cersei was a terrible wife before Robert became a terrible husband, she started the cheating.

[Gurkhal]

You are really going to try to defend Cersei?

It is an asshole name to mention another woman's name while consummating your marriage, yeah, but isn't it a sort of asshole thing to do to cheat on your husband before he does any of this and then actually have the audacity to be angry at him for him mentioning a name? Cersei was a terrible wife before Robert became a terrible husband, she started the cheating.

I don't defend everything that Cersei does, but I do try to put things into a little perspective and she had made bad things that's more than enough without bending over to conjecture things to attribute to her.

For the first thing Cersei can't logically have cheated on Robert before they were married because cheating one someone implies that they were in a relationship which they were not until the wedding night. And if that's the case then we should not forget the bastards that Robert sired before he married Cersei, in which case he was also cheating on her. Their relation started at the wedding night and that's when Robert whispered Lyanna's name.

[The Prince of Ice]

Cersei hates everyone who is not a Lannister. Cersei to Joff- "Everyone but us is an enemy". Now thats said and done i dont think Cersei hated the Starks from the get go. Until Lyanna came in and screwed up all her plans is when she gained her Stark hatred. Before Lyannas crowning of Love and Beauty im pretty sure Cersei didnt give a rats ass about the Starks, they can freeze their Northern asses off in Winterfell for all she cared at that moment.

[Sansa_Stark]

I may have a missed a post or two now, but give me a heads up if I did and I'll try and make a reply to them. :)

No, her whole mentality was that she should be allowed the same freedoms that men are allowed while still being a woman. Lords are allowed to sire bastards and keep women on the side without much of a fuss, so why can't she? Most of what she does that I can think of are things that men are allowed to do without people going nuts of over it.

Also when you are having a marriage night its kind of an asshole move to whisper another woman's name to your wife, same with raping her.

And in my opinion she tries to change a lot, although it is not very successful.

And no, that she sends people to Qyburn is wrong however your or mine subjective views of this does not make it objective. Although I agree with you that it is wrong to send people to Qyburn.

I love that too. Almost as much as I love to hear long character-bashing threads where the aspect that Cersei was both a victimizer AND a victim is ignored in favor of just bashing her. But I will grant you that its an improvement over the kind of stuff that went on when I first came to the forums.

actually it is objective. Sending people to a mad scientist/torturer because you want to conviently get rid of people is an evil act. The fact that you are still bringing up the fact that Cersei is a "victim" and looking in another direction when it comes to Qyburn just proves whatbI have saying all along

[Gurkhal]

actually it is objective. Sending people to a mad scientist/torturer because you want to conviently get rid of people is an evil act. The fact that you are still bringing up the fact that Cersei is a "victim" and looking in another direction when it comes to Qyburn just proves whatbI have saying all along

In what way have I looked in another direction? I have said that I consider it to be wrong by her to send people to Qyburn.

[Sansa_Stark]

Yeah, buts its just "wrong" to you. Its pretty damn objectively a horrible and monstrous thing she does once you realize what her motivations for sending people to him are and how cruel he actually can be.

Of course, Qyburn at least has a grey(the darkest shade) reason for doing what he does. Cersei has none. It is simple sociopathic cruelty of the highest order.

Also, what do you mean she tried to change things?

By denying Robert his truebirth children yes she did rebel against things, but her motivations were never about the advancement of women. Just herself.

[Toxspecific]

Cersei slept with Jaime after she was betrothed to Robert. That is cheating.

[Cyvasse Khal]

Well, maybe, but not towards Lyanna, I'd reckon. I think she might've (notice the might've) held a grudge against Ned for helping Robert in the rebellion (let's face it; without Ned and the North, Robert's Rebellion would've ended swiftly, and not in Robert's favor), indirectly helping him kill Rhaegar and leading to him being crowned the king of Westeros.

I should add that I personally think GRRM changed Cersei's feelings towards Robert from what they were originally going to be. I don't think she was originally meant to loathe him, just have zero respect for him because of his lack of talent for ruling as well as being constantly drunk. I think her being in love with Rhaegar and all that was kind of an afterthought, but this is purely speculation on my part, carry on :-)

I always found it so out of character for Cersei to have had such fondness for Rhaegar, especially with how tied at the hip (and the genitals) she was with Jaime. So you might be on to something that GRRM just needed a little bit more of a reason for Cersei to hate Robert so much and came up with that.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I think we're confusing her diminished role because of her gender with her sheer insane behavior. Of course she was descriminated against because she was a woman. Yeah she probably had a chip on her shoulder about Lyanna Stark, who wouldn't seeing as how the last TWO kings she wanted for herself clearly and vocally wanted to be with her instead. But none of that excuses her crazy reign of terror, lying, torture and murder. And ironically despite her ego boosting claims to the contrary she was just as terrible at ruling as Robert.