Could Cersei have always had it in for the Starks?

[The Frosted King]

Robert saying a name isn't half the insult of Ned having a bastard son installed at Winterfell before his wife and trueborn heir.

Catelyn was able to work past that.

Cersei heard a name whispered by a man who in truth, gave her much more than he was given.

She closed her heart....

That outlines perfectly the selfish, irrational way Cersei handles the world.

And sorry, but a guy having bastards outside his marriage IS a dick move, but it doesn't really approach the same danger as a woman doing the same.

Especially if said woman is determined to basically steal what isn't hers to have for her bastards.

Men and women aren't the same. It is what it is.

And Cersei lost to Lyanna three times.

First the QOLAB, then the kidnapping and finally Roberts infatuation.

It must've burned her to know Rhaegar went ALL the way to remote Winterfell to take her, when Casterly Rock was so much closer.

[David Selig]

Robert saying a name isn't half the insult of Ned having a bastard son installed at Winterfell before his wife and trueborn heir.

Catelyn was able to work past that.

Cersei heard a name whispered by a man who in truth, gave her much more than he was given.

She closed her heart....

What Ned did was much worse, but apart from that he was a good husband. Robert started cheating on Cersei publicly several months into the marriage, if not earlier. He never made any effort to make it work, unlike Ned. Probably wouldn't have worked anyway, but the the two cases aren't really comparable IMO.

[zamieo]

I always found it so out of character for Cersei to have had such fondness for Rhaegar, especially with how tied at the hip (and the genitals) she was with Jaime. So you might be on to something that GRRM just needed a little bit more of a reason for Cersei to hate Robert so much and came up with that.

That, and he might also have wanted to distance her a bit from Jaime and give us another look into their relationship - while Jaime always wanted to be with her, while he always loved her, she was just using him as an emotional crutch as well as someone to have sex with.

[Toxspecific]

At least Robert cheated later. Cersei didn't stop having sex with Jaime even after she got betrothed to Robert.

[Sansa_Stark]

What Ned did was much worse, but apart from that he was a good husband. Robert started cheating on Cersei publicly several months into the marriage, if not earlier. He never made any effort to make it work, unlike Ned. Probably wouldn't have worked anyway, but the the two cases aren't really comparable IMO.

Neither did Cersei.

She never tried to work past the "Lyanna" whisper while Catelyn tried to work past the Jon Snow situation.

[BryndenStark]

I just want to mention real quick - if sleeping around whilst betrothed isn't cheating, why did Cersei seek to destroy Margaery for that very crime? Clearly that's a case of egotism and double standard, where sympathy for one of the same gender is put aside in favour of superstition and subjective emotions. She clearly cares nought for Margaery's position - in Cersei's position, she couldn't contain herself even though the actual wedding would happen relatively soon. She views Margaery with contempt for not holding out on her needs for ...what...6 more years?

[Indigo Cardinal]

People pity Cersei because she got her feelings hurt? Did you all forget her victims sent to Qyburn, Robert's bastards and the countless dwarves she had killed?

No, which is why I said 'almost', in terms of feeling sorry for her. I can think about the situation, and how it would have fed into Cersei's general psyche, and feel empathy for *that* particular moment, but it doesn't mean I excuse or defend all her other actions (which are heinious). But the being passed over in favor of Lyanna makes me wonder how that shaped Cersei's worldview and influenced later thinking (if at all). What makes people tick (even imaginary ones) tends to interest me.

[Sansa_Stark]

I just want to mention real quick - if sleeping around whilst betrothed isn't cheating, why did Cersei seek to destroy Margaery for that very crime? Clearly that's a case of egotism and double standard, where sympathy for one of the same gender is put aside in favour of superstition and subjective emotions.

Because she and Tommen were actually married. It just wasn't consummated.

[Ser Luke.]

Cersei seems to have it in for just about everyone.

[David Selig]

I just want to mention real quick - if sleeping around whilst betrothed isn't cheating, why did Cersei seek to destroy Margaery for that very crime? Clearly that's a case of egotism and double standard, where sympathy for one of the same gender is put aside in favour of superstition and subjective emotions.

Tommen and Margaery are married, not just betrothed.

[BryndenStark]

Because she and Tommen were actually married. It just wasn't consummated.

Ah, I must be remembering things wrong...I thought it was a case of Cersei attacking Margaery upon the basis that she cheated during the betrothal stage. Ah well...still, she clearly isn't sympathetic towards those of the same gender. She plays that card whenever the odds are against her and never consider that aspect for others. Cersei did cheat whilst both betrothed to Robert AND married to him - regardless of the reasons - so Margaery's stand should at least be understood. In a world where sex is encouraged at a very young age, how does one resist temptation for years?

[Toxspecific]

I do hope people can judge for themselves which is the greater marriage sin; to whisper another woman's name while having sex with your wife, or continuing an incestuous affair before and after and throughout your marriage with your husband. Robert said the name Lyanna, he didn't have sex with it.

[yomi]

I do hope people can judge for themselves which is the greater marriage sin; to whisper another woman's name while having sex with your wife, or continuing an incestuous affair before and after and throughout your marriage with your husband. Robert said the name Lyanna, he didn't have sex with it.

No, but he had sex with enough living women.

Cersei is quiet evil, I don't disagree about that, but not because she cheated on poor, poor Robert, who she was forced to marry.

[spinelladude]

'I'm going to continue sleeping with my brother after I get married, but my husband better not cheat on me!' One does not simply defend Cersei.

This is known.

[Gurkhal]

Yeah, buts its just "wrong" to you. Its pretty damn objectively a horrible and monstrous thing she does once you realize what her motivations for sending people to him are and how cruel he actually can be.

Of course, Qyburn at least has a grey(the darkest shade) reason for doing what he does. Cersei has none. It is simple sociopathic cruelty of the highest order.

Also, what do you mean she tried to change things?

By denying Robert his truebirth children yes she did rebel against things, but her motivations were never about the advancement of women. Just herself.

1. I can say alot of things about Qyburn's work but I don't go all emotional over things to prove something.

2. She tried to take power herself rather than let various different men decide her fate for her?

3. Indeed it was. I don't argue with that. Cersei isn't into advancing woman as a group, just herself.

Cersei slept with Jaime after she was betrothed to Robert. That is cheating.

That is very true. However the argument put forward was that she was cheating even before they were married, which would've been impossible.

[spinelladude]

I'd also like to toss in that Cersei, even in her revenge, aborted a pregnancy by Robert due to the fact that she didn't want to share anything with him. She wanted the throne to herself, and her narcissism is the main reason why she chose Jaime as her partner as she has only loves herself. She also doesn't quite see her children as children, but means to rule and use to get her way. She tried to use Joffrey, but he was a miniature version of her, and due to her pride, couldn't admit it, while when Tommen starts realizing that 'he' can also rule as the king, Cersei scolds him and punishes him harshly for showing some back bone. The fact that Cersei knows what she does is evil, but what I find worse is that she justifies it by saying 'it's all for Tommen," even when it comes to accomplishing all her selfish actions and sleeping with every cock in the Red Keep. Cersei isn't meant to be defended, but she is supposed to be an example of why people shouldn't be entitled or feel entitled to power, IMO.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

She'll burn all her enemies with wildfire.

[Willard/Mitt Lannister]

That line right there is totally bogus. And if you don't think Cersei is evil, myopic, and incompetent we haven't been reading the same books.

It's starting to really confuse me why it can't be both?

Cersei was a little girl predisposed to trickery and selfishness. But, if you think she is entirely responsible for her becoming such a nasty, psychopathic person you've obviously not been reading the same series. As a woman in a patriarchal society, she has been subjected to some awful abuses herself.

Anyway, I doubt she has some vendetta against House Stark. She is just vain and self-absorbed. Her pride was certainly wounded, but I don't think she thinks enough about it. She mostly holds the North in contempt for being cold and poor until Ned gets all up in her business.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

It's starting to really confuse me why it can't be both?

Cersei was a little girl predisposed to trickery and selfishness. But, if you think she is entirely responsible for her becoming such a nasty, psychopathic person you've obviously not been reading the same series. As a woman in a patriarchal society, she has been subjected to some awful abuses herself.

Anyway, I doubt she has some vendetta against House Stark. She is just vain and self-absorbed. Her pride was certainly wounded, but I don't think she thinks enough about it. She mostly holds the North in contempt for being cold and poor until Ned gets all up in her business.

I always think of Cersei as a little Arya when she was young, Im sure Arya would of killed Joffrey if Joffrey hurt the butchers boy at that moment.

[Gurkhal]

I'd also like to toss in that Cersei, even in her revenge, aborted a pregnancy by Robert due to the fact that she didn't want to share anything with him. She wanted the throne to herself, and her narcissism is the main reason why she chose Jaime as her partner as she has only loves herself. She also doesn't quite see her children as children, but means to rule and use to get her way. She tried to use Joffrey, but he was a miniature version of her, and due to her pride, couldn't admit it, while when Tommen starts realizing that 'he' can also rule as the king, Cersei scolds him and punishes him harshly for showing some back bone. The fact that Cersei knows what she does is evil, but what I find worse is that she justifies it by saying 'it's all for Tommen," even when it comes to accomplishing all her selfish actions and sleeping with every cock in the Red Keep. Cersei isn't meant to be defended, but she is supposed to be an example of why people shouldn't be entitled or feel entitled to power, IMO.

Cersei really does not have an obligation to bear children to men who rape her. Most cultures acknowledge that.

Furthermore its fairly evident that Cersei loved Joffrey very much and had suprisingly little control over him at the same time. While she does a horrible job of raising her children, and Joffrey in particular would have benefited from a positive male role-model, I don't agree that you can say that Cersei didn't love her children.