Jump to content

R+L=J v 59


Stubby

Recommended Posts

A song of Ice and Fire is supposed to be PTWP from the line of Rhaella and Aerys, i.e. one person. None of the known Targs possesses the ice element.

Rhaegar said that Aegon's was the song of ice and fire, but Rhaegar could have read the prophecy wrong. Mel has read most of her visions wrong. Aemon thought the prophecy meant Daenerys, since dragons have no one gender. A Song of Ice and Fire could also refer to the original Ice and Blackfyre. It is never said that the Song of Ice and Fire and the PTWP are the same prophecy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wasn't sure whether to start a new topic somewhere (in the TV series) but I'll just post it here and see what happens.

I tend to follow this theory having read the books and seen a lot of convincing arguments on the forum.

As I was re-watching the first series of GoT the other day, in the episode 'Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things' I noticed something (a little crackpot) that the production designers might have added as a clue.

As Ser Alliser is talking to Jon and Sam when they are cleaning tables, I'm almost certain that carved on the post right behind Jon Snow are the letters R L...possible recognition of these theories? :P

:bowdown: Set designers aka in the Game of Trolls you win or you die: link here.

Welcome to the boards btw, and thanks for bringing up something new and - why not? - funny. It happens rarely :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhaegar said that Aegon's was the song of ice and fire, but Rhaegar could have read the prophecy wrong.
It sure seems that he read it wrong, more than once. We learn that he thought that it was himself, before Aegon’s birth, and we don’t know exactly why he changed his mind. We do know that he thought he had to learn to be a warrior, possibly to fulfill the PtwP role, at an early age.
Mel has read most of her visions wrong.
That is not all that she has wrong. I firmly believe that she outright lies to herself about things, as well. I believe that she will end up being evil incarnate, and even the red god followers will despise her.
Aemon thought the prophecy meant Daenerys, since dragons have no one gender.
If there is no PtwP then all of mankind is lost, from Aemon’s perspective. He knows of the prophecy that the Woods Witch gave, saying that He would be born of the line of Rhaella and Aerys. But, to keep from despairing he is searching for someone of that lineage to fulfill the prophecy, and Viserys is dead, so he is going to hope that Daenerys can fill the bill. Too bad he is blind, because Jon is standing right in front of him, and he still cannot see.
A Song of Ice and Fire could also refer to the original Ice and Blackfyre.
Song of Ice and Fire in my mind means the story of the love between House Targaryen and House Stark. The embodiment of that love is Jon, of course. The PtwP is a descendant of Rhaella and Aerys, and to be a Prince he must be legitimate.
It is never said that the Song of Ice and Fire and the PTWP are the same prophecy
No, it’s not. But, it sure seems that is where we are headed. I think that you might want to read the Reference Guide, thoroughly, then go back and reread A Game of Thrones, carefully, and see if you don’t change your mind.

ETA: Fix the font/size issue, and bring up the Flower:

One should accept the blue winter rose as a symbol, as it is carefully used by GRRM throughout the story to represent something special about Lyanna (and Rhaegar). Blue winter rose petals are a special fondness for Lyanna, we hear from Ned, but in such a way that it can easily be read that Jon is a special fondness of Lyanna's. They are in the air at the tower, when Ned and the Kingsguard clash. Perhaps a baby's shrill cries. But, the really tie it up in a nice bow and put it under the tree moment is in the House of the Undying, when Daenerys sees the blue winter rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness. Kind of hard to make it something else than it is. Also, for those who think that there might be a twin involved, I think this rules it out, somewhat, but not completely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhaegar said that Aegon's was the song of ice and fire, but Rhaegar could have read the prophecy wrong. Mel has read most of her visions wrong. Aemon thought the prophecy meant Daenerys, since dragons have no one gender. A Song of Ice and Fire could also refer to the original Ice and Blackfyre. It is never said that the Song of Ice and Fire and the PTWP are the same prophecy

Rhaegar believed that Aegon's was the song of ice and fire, but didn't know about Jon - or about Daenerys. I mean, he would have known that Lyanna was pregnant, but he apparently expected her to give birth to a daughter; as "the dragon has three heads" and it would mirror the original Aegon with his two sister. If he believed his only (at the time) son was the Prince that was promised, it might not have occurred to him that the Prince might be his second-born son (Jon), or that it might have been gender-neutral (as with Aemon's alleged mistake) and it could be a Princess (i.e., Daenerys).

And of course, it could be that prophesies are often misinterpreted because they are obscure, and they are all wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that you might want to read the Reference Guide, thoroughly, then go back and reread A Game of Thrones, carefully, and see if you don’t change your mind.

I strongly concur.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cat was in no position to do anything that would endanger Jon. Robb was KitN and both the northern and river lords would obey him if he decreed that Jon was not to be harmed.

Is Ned alive then? No, so when ppl are talking about Cat selling out Jon as a Targ, they're obviously talking about it in the context of before Ned's death. Jon's presence at Winterfell as a secrete Targ put Cat's whole family in danger of Robert's wrath, so if Cat knew the truth about Jon, who's to say she wouldn't have told king Robert, you know the guy that hates all Targs with a burning passion and wants to see them all dead, or made some sort of agreement with Robert, that by her giving him Jon, in exchange, Robert would then spare her children from any possible guilty by association accusations.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Guys,

I have a thought/question. When King Robert dies Ned is aware of Cersei's abominations and the King makes him the Protector of the Realm, he thinks the throne belongs to Stannis, right? Well, why wouldn't he have used the opportunity to raise

Jon Snow to the throne and reveal his parentage finally

since the King is dead, the one person he was being protected from? I know it wouldn't have been immediately, but it seems like if Ned was successful and lived, that he would feel even more honor in returning the ACTUAL heir back to the throne and not anyone in relation to the Usurper. Especially if all of the grief caused over the years was caused by this. He'd have the opportunity to un-do his fight for the stolen throne (which I think much of his grief is caused by being as though it was the end of the war when he finds that Lyanna was exactly where she wanted to be and the war was revealed to be folly) and get some relief from his acts during the rebellion. Any thoughts? Comments?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Guys,

I have a thought/question. When King Robert dies Ned is aware of Cersei's abominations and the King makes him the Protector of the Realm, he thinks the throne belongs to Stannis, right? Well, why wouldn't he have used the opportunity to raise

Jon Snow to the throne and reveal his parentage finally

since the King is dead, the one person he was being protected from? I know it wouldn't have been immediately, but it seems like if Ned was successful and lived, that he would feel even more honor in returning the ACTUAL heir back to the throne and not anyone in relation to the Usurper. Especially if all of the grief caused over the years was caused by this. He'd have the opportunity to un-do his fight for the stolen throne (which I think much of his grief is caused by being as though it was the end of the war when he finds that Lyanna was exactly where she wanted to be and the war was revealed to be folly) and get some relief from his acts during the rebellion. Any thoughts? Comments?

Ned fought to bring down the Targs, giving the throne to one makes no sense because the Baratheons are the royal family now and Stannis is Robert's heir

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Guys,

I have a thought/question. When King Robert dies Ned is aware of Cersei's abominations and the King makes him the Protector of the Realm, he thinks the throne belongs to Stannis, right? Well, why wouldn't he have used the opportunity to raise

Jon Snow to the throne and reveal his parentage finally

since the King is dead, the one person he was being protected from? I know it wouldn't have been immediately, but it seems like if Ned was successful and lived, that he would feel even more honor in returning the ACTUAL heir back to the throne and not anyone in relation to the Usurper. Especially if all of the grief caused over the years was caused by this. He'd have the opportunity to un-do his fight for the stolen throne (which I think much of his grief is caused by being as though it was the end of the war when he finds that Lyanna was exactly where she wanted to be and the war was revealed to be folly) and get some relief from his acts during the rebellion. Any thoughts? Comments?

First, Ned swore fealty to Robert, so for him, Robert was the rightful king.

Second, pushing Jon's claim would result in another war.

Third, the rebellion was not fought over Lyanna but over Ned and Robert's lives and the defiance of Jon Arryn who refused to hand their heads over to Aerys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Guys,

I have a thought/question. When King Robert dies Ned is aware of Cersei's abominations and the King makes him the Protector of the Realm, he thinks the throne belongs to Stannis, right? Well, why wouldn't he have used the opportunity to raise

Jon Snow to the throne and reveal his parentage finally

since the King is dead, the one person he was being protected from? I know it wouldn't have been immediately, but it seems like if Ned was successful and lived, that he would feel even more honor in returning the ACTUAL heir back to the throne and not anyone in relation to the Usurper. Especially if all of the grief caused over the years was caused by this. He'd have the opportunity to un-do his fight for the stolen throne (which I think much of his grief is caused by being as though it was the end of the war when he finds that Lyanna was exactly where she wanted to be and the war was revealed to be folly) and get some relief from his acts during the rebellion. Any thoughts? Comments?

This thought has crossed my mind too if I'm honest.

Ned substitutes the word "heir" in Robert's Will. Although I have no doubt that he means Stannis here, perhaps just perhaps, the word "heir" could leave the way open in the future should the need or opportunity ever arise.

When Ned talks about Lyanna and Jon, he mentions "lies" in the plural sense - that means to me that he feels guilty about lying to Catelyn about Jon's parentage but it could also mean he feels guilty for allowing Jon to believe that he is a bastard.

IMO, Ned's first and immediate priority is to protect not only Jon's life but his own and that of his family so he has had to forsake Jon's birthright. I have no doubt he feels guilty about it but at this point in time, he is prepared to carry on doing this in order to allow Stannis to succeed, because doing otherwise could put the whole family's life in danger. Plus, as Robert conquered the IT, he might console himself with the fact that by rights, the succession belongs to the Baratheons now anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, Ned swore fealty to Robert, so for him, Robert was the rightful king.

Second, pushing Jon's claim would result in another war.

Third, the rebellion was not fought over Lyanna but over Ned and Robert's lives and the defiance of Jon Arryn who refused to hand their heads over to Aerys.

What Ygrain said. Ned is not going to risk Jon's life and another war to press Jon's claim.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ned fought to bring down the Targs, giving the throne to one makes no sense because the Baratheons are the royal family now and Stannis is Robert's heir

No, Robert had the best claim to the throne because his grandmother was a Targaryen. You need to do some reading. ;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, Robert had the best claim to the throne because his grandmother was a Targaryen. You need to do some reading. ;)

Ned and Robert fought a war to bring down Aerys and put Robert up as king because of his Targ blood, but Robert is a Baratheon of Storm's End and if he is king, House Targaryen is no longer the ruling family. Dany's claim is better than Robert's if we're judging by Targ blood, but we aren't. Ned accepted Robert as his liege and wouldn't press a Targ claim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ned and Robert fought a war to bring down Aerys and put Robert up as king because of his Targ blood, but Robert is a Baratheon of Storm's End and if he is king, House Targaryen is no longer the ruling family. Dany's claim is better than Robert's if we're judging by Targ blood, but we aren't. Ned accepted Robert as his liege and wouldn't press a Targ claim

On the contrary, the other noble houses accepted Robert because of his ties to the Targaryen family. The only other known Targaryens (Daenerys and Viserys) are in exile, and cannot do much about it. That is why Robert fears Daenerys having a male child and returning to claim the throne. Ned and Robert fought against Aerys' demands for their heads, not against the family. ;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the contrary, the other noble houses accepted Robert because of his ties to the Targaryen family. The only other known Targaryens (Daenerys and Viserys) are in exile, and cannot do much about it. That is why Robert fears Daenerys having a male child and returning to claim the throne. Ned and Robert fought against Aerys' demands for their heads, not against the family. ;)

Indeed :

"He would say that even a million Dothraki are no threat to the realm, so long as they remain on the other side of the narrow sea," Ned replied calmly. "The barbarians have no ships. They hate and fear the open sea."

The king shifted uncomfortably in his saddle. "Perhaps. There are ships to be had in the Free Cities, though. I tell you, Ned, I do not like this marriage. There are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me Usurper. Do you forget how many houses fought for Targaryen in the war? They bide their time for now, but give them half a chance, they will murder me in my bed, and my sons with me. If the beggar king crosses with a Dothraki horde at his back, the traitors will join him."

So ya Robert clearly believes and fears that there is still a good portion of Westeros that don't fully accept him as their king and actually still secretly prefer the Targaryens as the ruling monarch over the Baratheons, and that they're just waiting patiently for their chance to strike against the Baratheon monarch by rallying to a Targ that returns to Westeros.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Indeed :

"He would say that even a million Dothraki are no threat to the realm, so long as they remain on the other side of the narrow sea," Ned replied calmly. "The barbarians have no ships. They hate and fear the open sea."

The king shifted uncomfortably in his saddle. "Perhaps. There are ships to be had in the Free Cities, though. I tell you, Ned, I do not like this marriage. There are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me Usurper. Do you forget how many houses fought for Targaryen in the war? They bide their time for now, but give them half a chance, they will murder me in my bed, and my sons with me. If the beggar king crosses with a Dothraki horde at his back, the traitors will join him."

So ya Robert clearly believes and fears that there is still a good portion of Westeros that don't fully accept him as their king and actually still secretly prefer the Targaryens as the ruling monarch over the Baratheons, and that they're just waiting patiently for their chance to strike against the Baratheon monarch by rallying to a Targ that returns to Westeros.....

Cough*Martells*cough ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cough*Martells*cough ;)

Haha definitely, also this is kind of crackpotty but for some reason, I feel like the Hightowers are secretly pro Targ. I don't know what it is, but I can't seem to shake this feeling that House Hightower is about to make a huge pro Targ move, late in the game..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Haha definitely, also this kind of crackpotty but for reason, I feel like the Hightowers are secretly pro Targ. I don't know what it is, but I can't seem to shake this feeling that House Hightower is about to make a huge pro Targ move, late in the game..

I think after Aegon and Jon Connington help Oldtown defeat the Ironborn's assault on Oldtown, the Hightowers will join Aegon, as they'll believe he's a Targ.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Haha definitely, also this kind of crackpotty but for reason, I feel like the Hightowers are secretly pro Targ. I don't know what it is, but I can't seem to shake this feeling that House Hightower is about to make a huge pro Targ move, late in the game..

I think it will be a pro-Jon move, myself. I keep getting a feeling that the White Bull and the proximity of Old Town to the tower are going to play a pivotal role in revealing Jon's heritage.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...