Anti-Feminist Internet Meme + Privacy Invasion = Let's discuss the Internet.

[Errant Bard]

The "argument" delivered by appending "That's pretty much what I expected" to this woman's picture is that feminists are fat, ugly middle-aged women.

I think HE's contention was that even if the argument is the worst (by your subjective opinion) ever, it does not make censoring more ok or less of a slippery slope.

Beyond that the argument is not about what feminists are, but what the stereotype for feminists is (for the guy who added the caption), and how the picture validates it. Everything else is extrapolation.

It takes a lot of context to be offended by "You look like what you say you are", I am more disturbed by the actual existence and survival of the stereotype than by people who buy into it, and here from a purely PR point of view, that image made available in isolation was not a good thing for a modification of the image of feminists. (I am not saying the intent behind the image caption is not a direct insult, that feminisl is bad, that this woman has no right to be feminist or that her appearance matters for that, just that when you are not preaching to the choir, and trying to reverse a stereotype, it's not a good PR move to validate that stereotype in your campaign.)

[James Arryn]

The "argument" delivered by appending "That's pretty much what I expected" to this woman's picture is that feminists are fat, ugly middle-aged women. Since, even if true, this argument has absolutely no bearing on the truth or validity of any argument any feminist has ever said anywhere in the world (since the physical attractiveness of the speaker is not a fact that impacts the truth of an argument), the argument itself is neither valid nor apt nor true nor good. It's a shitty argument delivered in a pithy way.

Aye, but there's the rub.

If the bold is true (it is) then the argument presented, pithy or not, has no bearing on the (a) feminist position AT ALL. It is neither shitty nor sublime; it is completely beside the point. Addressing it as though it attacks the merit of the (a) feminist position is to either imbue it with significance it should not have, or concede that the merits of the argument are less important than the persuasiveness of the argument.

The former challenges the essential nature of any egalitarian movement re: superficiality. The latter reduces the argument to any other adversarial power play.

On fact, the meme is factual. That is a feminist. It is not indicative of the physical characteristics of all feminists, but who the fuck cares if it is? Would that in any way invalidate feminism? Would the supposed motivation for feminism some say that norm would suggest actually reduce the validity of the argument itself?

Of course not. What's happening is that people are being backed into a corner where their thinking revolves around the win vs. lose aspect of the argument, and that's a terrible way to uphold something real. Animal Farm stuff.

Practically, the only people who will judge the merits of feminism on the basis of real or assumed superficial norms of feminists aren't likely to be worth much to the argument anyways. If that'll get them, so will _______.

I think the only worthy response a sincere feminist should give this meme is:

[Pero the first of His name]

It'd be nice to have a list of things that are too silly to be upset about. I'd like to see it so I can distribute to all my feminists friends and save ourselves some wasted effort. Why don't you start that list for us, Pero?

To be honest there seems to be a significant number of people who carry with them the stereotype that feminists are jealous women who can't compete for the hot dates and then who seek to justify that stereotype using vague and imprecise terms "a good deal."

I've started associated with self-identified feminists since college. I cannot recall a single politically active feminist who'd fit that profile. I've met women who do seem to be bitter about not being able to get dates, but these women don't build a feminist identity over it. The self-identifying feminists that I know of choose that label because the politics of gender and sex motivates them to do so. Maybe things are very different where you are from?

What does this mean? Fail where? What other road? Jealous of what?

I would start the list with the Blurred lines thread and protesting against adult beauty pageants. Tho both are silly themselves. I would like to see more feminists in the High heels thread, that is where it is needed.

By a good deal i mean often noticable.

There are many outspoken ones too.

Among these quotes there are some real gems

http://antimisandry.com/feminist-misandry/feminist-quotes-20106.html

I would never call myself a feminist but rather a fighter for rights and social equality of both genders or something similar once i think more about the name. Although in theory feminism is good it often leads to foolishness due to lack of perspective and thought.

The feminists also do not do enough to distance themselves from their extremists.

But i do understand it is hard to distance from the extremists of your side and i do have understanding why it seems that it is needed to be called feminism and that women need it more than men in the majority of cases.

As for your last questions, lets take a young beautiful woman who does not have money. She has an advantage of taking a modeling job. Someone also has full right to hire a more attractive person if they think it would be better for business. A good looking girl will sooner get a husband with a lot of money to take care of her.

As i said i think it is very important to teach girls from an early age that it is not all about looks and give them every opportunity, direction and support to succed by other means.

But as long as people will like beauty and are sexual creatures on top of that the things i listed will happen and better looking people will have those chances.

We can indead be jealous a bit and think of them and respect them less but only to an extent. We can always make jokes of it too unless in a serious discussion and decisionmaking situation.

We should all be made fun of from time to time, else we take ourselves too seriously.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I think what distinguishes the jokes about Polish peoples and this meme about feminists is the latter is what I said to Penguin King - a way to confirm that people are right to ignore feminists because feminist motivations stem from their appearance and supposed inability to acquire the attention of men.

That kind of ad hominem dismissal is just anti-intellectualism, whether it's done against feminists, Christians, or whoever. Makes us all smaller.

eta: We can understand the joke because the stereotype is prevalent, but I agree with you that comprehending the joke isn't proof of sexism.

I'd daresay I'm probably closer to some of the folks who hold that stereotype, so I'll try to state my view of it as accurately/bluntly as I can. The stereotype is generally considered by those who make it to be a joke, and a recognized overstatement. I don't know many anti-feminists -- and to some extent I consider myself one -- who truly believe that the only reason a woman becomes a feminist is because she can't get a man. There are enough acknowledged hot feminists to disprove that.

The stereotype is often stated for the express purpose of pissing off feminists, and igniting outrage by feminists, who many conservatives see as being somewhat smug and condescending. So, since you know this will piss them off, you say it, they go apeshit. Mission accomplished.

Now, I'll admit that I personally have no issue in principle with something clever that pisses off political opponents. But this particular thing I really don't like because it singled out a particular person, who really had done nothing to suggest she held extreme or anti-male views. It was just singular cruelty as far as I was concerned, and I do agree with Raidne in that the picture appeared to be of someone I thought looked like a nice person who took care of herself, etc..

But again, I want to emphasize that the general point of such gibes is usually just to piss off feminists, not a statement of belief as to the universal applicability of the stereotype.

[Tempra]

I'd daresay I'm probably closer to some of the folks who hold that stereotype, so I'll try to state my view of it as accurately/bluntly as I can. The stereotype is generally considered by those who make it to be a joke, and a recognized overstatement. I don't know many anti-feminists -- and to some extent I consider myself one -- who truly believe that the only reason a woman becomes a feminist is because she can't get a man. There are enough acknowledged hot feminists to disprove that.

The stereotype is often stated for the express purpose of pissing off feminists, and igniting outrage by feminists, who many conservatives see as being somewhat smug and condescending. So, since you know this will piss them off, you say it, they go apeshit. Mission accomplished.

Now, I'll admit that I personally have no issue in principle with something clever that pisses off political opponents. But this particular thing I really don't like because it singled out a particular person, who really had done nothing to suggest she held extreme or anti-male views. It was just singular cruelty as far as I was concerned, and I do agree with Raidne in that the picture appeared to be of someone I thought looked like a nice person who took care of herself, etc..

But again, I want to emphasize that the general point of such gibes is usually just to piss off feminists, not a statement of belief as to the universal applicability of the stereotype.

Yep. The "ugly feminist" is akin to the "basement-dwelling misogynist," who apparently can't get laid either. Neither caricature is accurate or even meant to be accurate; they are meant to piss off political opponents.

[Castel]

Yep. The "ugly feminist" is akin to the "basement-dwelling misogynist," who apparently can't get laid either. Neither caricature is accurate or even meant to be accurate; they are meant to piss off political opponents.

Or to make them look pathetic for the in-group and on-the-fence onlookers. Preaching to the choir ftw.

[The Progressive]

(The comment to Cosmo in the original rebuttal, linked in the OP, is delicious as well.)

It is very delicious.

Cosmo is so full of shit to stir this up. They're the principal culprit for influencing the public's perception of what is considered to be feminine beauty today and you won't ever see such a picture ever gracing their covers.

[Sophelia]

John Scalzi's answer (ah, I just noticed DanteGabriel already posted this - sorry for the deja vu)

(and a general article about the kind of things he does for equality, including a link to his explanation for gamers)

[Sci-2]

Or to make them look pathetic for the in-group and on-the-fence onlookers. Preaching to the choir ftw.

I think this is the issue with these kinds of jokes, no matter who the target is. Even if someone's argument is compelling, our confirmation-biased minds will still want to dismiss it.

Worse yet, is if someone just dismisses without reading, because "oh it's that feminist/libertarian/Christian/etc" garbage.

[I know I know]

I think this is the issue with these kinds of jokes, no matter who the target is. Even if someone's argument is compelling, our confirmation-biased minds will still want to dismiss it.

Worse yet, is if someone just dismisses without reading, because "oh it's that feminist/libertarian/Christian/etc" garbage.

Sci's summary further back of why the GIF is a meanspirited mockery says perfectly why it isn't clever or classy. Ethically, the GIF is about a -10.

"Mean humor on the internet."

But to persistently "demand" that a humorous GIFs should be censored because it mildly ridicules you? Much worse. it's about a -80.

"Loudly demanding to not experience the internet while on the internet, and being loudly offended when your demands are not taken seriously."

It's the internet.

Also:

A lot of GRRM fans look like Samwell Tarley, and a lot of feminists look like the girl in the pic. Stereotypes.

A lot of feminists are the "killjoy" type to get mad at internet memes, while few GRRM fans would be offended at a meme ridiculing neckbeard comicon nerds. Stereotypes.

What's the point of getting angry, even getting angry in such a stereotypical ("I demand censorship!") way? Everyone knows that this only gets the feminist girl more attention, right?

[Sci-2]

On the subject of not focusing on "silly things". There are times when I read a complaint by a feminist and I'll roll my eyes or inwardly groan at what I see as a mountain crafted from a mole hill.

But then sometimes, upon consideration, I'll find myself agreeing them. And often, in those cases, I realize my objection was rooted not in reason but in my own confirmation bias. After being a bit anti-feminist myself for a long time, I notice that wiring doesn't just vanish - heck I'll still be annoyed by feminist writing I logically agree with!

This is why I'd rather have more complaints than less, as otherwise it seems to me those who have power - and dare I say "privilege"? - are able to control what's a valid complaint and what isn't.

A lot of feminists are the "killjoy" type to get mad at a GIF, while few GRRM fans would be offended at a meme ridiculing comicon nerds - they'd maybe be more likely to laugh at themselves.

A lot GRRM fans likely wouldn't care. Might be different for the "Samwell" in the photo to realize he's being mocked by thousands of strangers.

[TerraPrime]

It's the internet.

What a fucking daft statement. As if that statement, and the implied assumption behind it, has any sort of explanatory or exculpatory power. No shit, Sherlock, it's the internet. I think she knew, given that she's posting on FaceBook, and I don't think you can access FaceBook with a Morse code machine. Fucking Christ on a stick.

The feminists who are deemed to be overly sensitive to these things are as much a part of the internet culture as the knuckle-dragging troglodytes are. Just because the latter outnumber the former does not mean shit when it comes to marking out your own corner and fighting the battle you deem worthy. We know the internet is full of assholes who spew hateful stuff under the cover of anonymity - 4chan and reddit made sure that we're aware of that, thankyouverymuch. The point is that some of us are unwilling to accept that reality and we are challenging the normative value of these abusive behaviors.

[Castel]

nvm

[I know I know]

What a fucking daft statement. As if that statement, and the implied assumption behind it, has any sort of explanatory or exculpatory power. No shit, Sherlock, it's the internet. I think she knew, given that she's posting on FaceBook, and I don't think you can access FaceBook with a Morse code machine. Fucking Christ on a stick.

The feminists who are deemed to be overly sensitive to these things are as much a part of the internet culture as the knuckle-dragging troglodytes are. Just because the latter outnumber the former does not mean shit when it comes to marking out your own corner and fighting the battle you deem worthy. We know the internet is full of assholes who spew hateful stuff under the cover of anonymity - 4chan and reddit made sure that we're aware of that, thankyouverymuch. The point is that some of us are unwilling to accept that reality and we are challenging the normative value of these abusive behaviors.

On our own website, we can even use our own double standards. If I had written that above post, I'd have been banned from posting for a week.

Facebook, however, isn't her own site. It's a step removed from 4chan and reddit, but a small step.

A lot GRRM fans likely wouldn't care. Might be different for the "Samwell" in the photo to realize he's being mocked by thousands of strangers.

Star Wars Kid is a good example. It's happened to a number of Samwells, yeah - and take-down attempts almost invariably draw even more attention. I think some take-downers are genuinely trying to calm things down, and some not. Some of the take-downers are quietly trying to remove the media, and some are making proclamatory blog posts stating how they feel to the world, with open comment sections with 1000's of comments and countless repostings in forums (like this one) from ladies talking about how to spread awareness of the victim who just wants to be left alone.

edit: A major distinction here is that Star Wars Kid did not post the ridiculous video himself, much less on a "talk about myself" site.

[karaddin]

You will never get banned from this forum for calling an argument or a statement stupid, fucking stupid or even fucking daft. The last week has been a wonderful demonstration in just how offensive you can be before you get banned.

[I know I know]

You will never get banned from this forum for calling an argument or a statement stupid, fucking stupid or even fucking daft. The last week has been a wonderful demonstration in just how offensive you can be before you get banned.

Besides having been banned a week for calling a piece of fanfic retarded (in a perfectly amiable context, with another, friendly fan of the fanfic in complete agreement), I've also been banned for discussing previous bannings. I'm not sure if I'm going to get banned for replying to you.

[Kat]

No, but this is a thread derail. Get back on topic, please.

[Phaing]

Besides having been banned a week for calling a piece of fanfic retarded (in a perfectly amiable context, with another, friendly fan of the fanfic in complete agreement), I've also been banned for discussing previous bannings. I'm not sure if I'm going to get banned for replying to you.

If the South Park people ever want to go ballistic on Blogs, well....

nvm

Indeed.

[Galactus]

Besides having been banned a week for calling a piece of fanfic retarded (in a perfectly amiable context, with another, friendly fan of the fanfic in complete agreement), I've also been banned for discussing previous bannings. I'm not sure if I'm going to get banned for replying to you.

You do know being banned for questioning/discussing bans is pretty much standard procedure just about everywhere, no?

[Guest Raidne]

Galactus and James - Do you think the women's rights movement is the most successful civil rights movement in history or not?

I have books - several - on the legal status of women throughout history. It's an interesting subject. But the finer points don't seem overly relevant to the point I was making to me. Please disabuse me of that notion if it is otherwise.