was stannis meant to be likeable

[LordStoneheart]

And @Mormont, I'm not going to discuss something so painfully simple in such length. I refuse to believe there is any other meaning to what GRRM said when he called Stannis righteous (this should really end the 'Stannis is evil' debate but I guess people believe what they want to).

Well refusing to believe there's other meanings to what GRRM says might show why you think so highly of Stannis, as its completely missing the point of how he writes characters and that sentence in particular.

When Davos smuggled Edric out, Stannis responded by thanking him.

First he was going to behead him, then he thanked him.

[Toxspecific]

Well refusing to believe there's other meanings to what GRRM says might show why you think so highly of Stannis, as its completely missing the point of how he writes characters and that sentence in particular.

First he was going to behead him, then he thanked him.

I just recently told Bumps that I was wrong to say there's no other meanings to the quote? At least read a convo fully before you comment on it.

[A Man Has Said]

Stannis does not view burning the seven or executing men(that he views as traitors) as unrighteous, since he did it in service to his god. He did not execute men trying to defend their religion(Selyse and Mel executed them).

Stannis may have committed bad actions, but he has good intentions.

Except that, at this particular point in the story it's pretty clear that Stannis doesn't accept any god or gods.I believe there's a passage saying how he turned his back on them all when he saw his parents killed.

It's hard to say exactly when or even if Stannis becomes a true believer in R'hllor. My impression is that it's at about the time he goes to the Wall. YMMV. It isn't explicit in the text AFAIK. It is explicit in the text that he's not a believer at any time during ACoK, though. So these acts couldn't have been in service to his god.

[LordStoneheart]

I just recently told Bumps that I was wrong to say there's no other meanings to the quote? At least read a convo fully before you comment on it.

Eh, I comment as I go and it was seven pages.

Except that, at this particular point in the story it's pretty clear that Stannis doesn't accept any god or gods.I believe there's a passage saying how he turned his back on them all when he saw his parents killed.

It's hard to say exactly when or even if Stannis becomes a true believer in R'hllor. My impression is that it's at about the time he goes to the Wall. YMMV. It isn't explicit in the text AFAIK. It is explicit in the text that he's not a believer at any time during ACoK, though. So these acts couldn't have been in service to his god.

I know its up in the air whether he is truly a R'hllor worshiper at all, a R'hllor fanatic, or a completely non-believer using Mel to get his way... it still pretty shitty to reject all other religions and persecute them. (Ok, Mel is doing the burning of godswoods and such, but I haven't seen Stannis protesting, and he did tell Jon in order to be Lord of Winterfell he'd have to convert to Rhllor.)

[E-Ro]

To make a long story short, I honestly think if the author didn't want stannis to be liked he would not have given him the type of lines he has given him, or made him such an effective leader.

I think people who like Stannis are/were:

- More logical and rational than emotional and empatic

- Concrete and structured people

- Not spoiled and loved by everyone when they were young, but rather was an underdog

- Honorable and righteous, conservative and hard minded

And people who dislike Stannis were probably more spoiled and loved by everyone as a child, has more social intelligence than IQ, is more creative and adventurous, does things by emotion rather than by rational thinking and are soft minded.

So in my opinion, GRRM wanted Stannis to be liked by some, and disliked by others.

While this is an extremely interesting post, and I see exactly what you mean, I disagree. I love stannis allot(perhaps more then i should) and im FAR closer to what you described in the second grouping then the first. Its an interesting thought though.

Misunderstood, you meant characters in the books, not irl. my bad.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Why are there always so many threads about why people like Stannis, or whether or not he was intended to be 'likeable' by GRRM?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Why are there always so many threads about why people like Stannis, or whether or not he was intended to be 'likeable' by GRRM?

Ditto

I think cause this forum has alot of stan fans compared to the general fanbase so it is a shock to most new users.

[E-Ro]

Why are there always so many threads about why people like Stannis, or whether or not he was intended to be 'likeable' by GRRM?

Stannis is hot product, that's why.

[The Ash Tree]

NVM.

I never liked Stannis in the beginning, the first two books. It's only after he came north that he started becoming cool.

[aceluby]

Guncer Sunglass and Hubbard Rambton's sons were killed while Stannis was fighting at King's Landing. Stannis wasn't present, nor do we have any evidence of him giving the command. When Stannis was present and they were in the dungeons no burnings took place, it was only when Melisandre was left alone with Selyse that it happened.

And yet Stannis did nothing to them. Not even a scolding. Where was his almighty justice there? Where was his sense of law and punishment for doing something horrible? Where?

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

So, Stannis don't burn people that's a Melisandre decision. It was Mel idea to fight against the others, So who is the "King"?

[King Stannis]

I think the rabid Stannis haters here like to overexagerrate many things or even make things up. And I am tired of it. Not that the Stan Stans are the best of the best either..

[A Man Has Said]

I think I might have the definitive answer to the OP, though I doubt many people will like it.

The answer is YES, Stannis must have been meant to be likable - at least by some people. The proof of that is that some people like him. He was certainly not meant to be liked by everyone, or he would be.

What determines WHO will like or dislike Stannis - or feel neutral towards him might be a function of psychology, in which case you'd have to read Carl Jung's work on the subject of personality types.

(gawd, I hope that last bit doesn't get me in trouble with the mods.) :P

[Brother Seamus]

There is no other way to look at such an extremely simple quote. He called Stannis righteous. There's no other perspective here, no other way of interpreting this. I'm having a hard time believing you're actually even saying what you are saying. In spite of everything, Stannis is a righteous man. It means Stannis has his flaws but he is an overall righteous man. That is what it means, there is no way twist the meaning of this sentence around.

Seriously.

gee whiz. how argumentative can you get? clearly the whatgrrm meant is, inspite of being an a-hole and having lots of bad qualitities, he's righteous. no one's debating he said he was righteous, whatever the f*** that means, just that it was in spite of his overall unfavorable/bad qualities. do you really disagree?

[Brother Seamus]

obviously Stannis was meant to be unlikeable, but then it's shown that despite all the reasons not to like him, he is, at least at the moment, on the right side and doing the right things for mostly the right reasons. morally, he's grey, likemost grrm characters. personal;ity-wise, he's kind of a prick, but who cares.

and, as for killing renly: that makes him a kinslayer. let's not forget that. he's cursed, and his ultimate fate will reflect that. not to mention, who really thinks r'hllor and/or the religion of r'hllor, is a positive force in the ASOIF world? not me.

a little OT, but i'm betting we see that the core issue on a religious/metaphysical/supernatural level is not so much good-vs-evil, but the practice of human sacrifice, how that's a grave sin, and how those who practice it are cursed. r'hllor and r'hllor-ism are on the wrong side of that equation.

[Thelastactionhero]

Look, I'm with you on taking this quote way too far-- I don't think Martin's interviews about character interpretations should be used as evidence for character interpretation because they tend to be so vague and misleading.

The thing is, though, this particular quote only calls going to the Wall "righteous." Martin doesn't speak for or against any of Stannis' non-Wall actions either way, and the "in spite of all this" connotes that he believes the rightness of these things arguable.

My issue here isn't about whether I agree or disagree about Stannis' "righteousness." My issue is about using this quote the way it was being used in this thread (and elsewhere in the past), because it actually does more to hurt the case it was trying to accomplish. So my issue is more about using this as evidence than agreeing with it or not.

If this was posed at me, I didn't say that.

I should have phrased that differently, so I apologize for imposing that on you because in retrospect I slightly misread that portion of your post. And I think we're very much on the same page with this, so kudos.

As for the original point of the topic, I agree with what's been said by some that painting Stannis as uncharismatic and unlikeable, yet giving him this complicated character arc, was meant to play with reader's expectations and thus create a polarizing effect in which it becomes, at times, difficult to decide whether or not one should be rooting for or against his cause. I was a bit of an oddball, in that I found Stannis fascinating and likeable from the get go, but in terms of the actual arc, I think it's clear that up until half way through SoS he was rendered in a more negative than positive light. As the series has progressed, his likability has substantially increased, and I feel that this is somewhat intentional, with my evidence mostly being drawn from the Jon POV chapters. In fact, the way Jon views Stannis actually reflects the inner conflict many of us have with Stannis as readers, because it is easy to see that he has fundamental flaws and shortcomings, yet for some reason Jon can't bring himself not to offer Stannis aid. He comes to believe that, "despite everything," Stannis is trying to do the right the thing, and that counts for something considering how fucked Westeros is at the moment. This notion of Stannis as "the king who still cared", is very telling for me in terms of whether or not George intended for us to sympathize with his struggles to a larger degree.

[mormont]

Since apparently people don't read the thread - including the mod warning - it's time to close it.