Why do people like/dislike Stannis?

[Pootie Tang]

I really think 'Stannis good or bad thing' ought to be a pinned topic like R + L = J.

Why? The only people who'd bare being in there are just going to end up agreeing with each other anyway.

[Ramsay B.]

I really think 'Stannis good or bad thing' ought to be a pinned topic like R + L = J.

Yup. The Stannis obsession continues...

[Stanerys Snow]

How could you fall in love with him when he hasn't even appeared yet?

I fell in love with him the moment he appeared in the chapter. Cressen's description of him combined with his first few lines sealed the deal.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

That one and all the others are locked.

Yes, but you can find out why people like him there. The one I linked has more than 400 replies I believe.

[A Man Has Said]

I like him because he seems "real". It's easy to empathize and sympathize with his character. From his introduction through Cressen in ACoK, I was in love with him.

And since this seems to be a continuation of the last thread (which had its interesting moments):

This quote:

“I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King’s Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men.”

“If you do not believe in gods-”

“-why trouble with this new one?” Stannis broke in. “I have asked myself as well. I know little and care less of gods, but the red priestess has power.”

I don't agree with your assertion that it is pretty clear that Stannis doesn't accept any god. I interpret this passage to mean that Stannis does not like the idea of the gods, but Mel's "power/magic" has him questioning the existence of R'hllor. I will not deny that he views her powers as means to an end, but based on his comments throughout the text I'm pretty sure that he at least questioned the existence of R'hllor. Stannis is limited by his own knowledge, so I would assume that he believes Mel gets her power from her god that also becomes his god in ACoK. When we are introduced to Stannis in ACoK, he is every bit the man alluded to by various characters in AGoT. This is proven as we read the conversation between Stannis and Cressen regarding Stannis' claim to the throne. We are then given the exact period of time when Stannis takes the shift into a different kind of man that has been swayed by religious power.

During the conversation with Cressen in the prologue of ACoK, Stannis is preparing to ask Lysa Arryn and the Starks for help against the Lannisters. He is agonizing over it, but realizes that he has no other choice. Selyse comes in making claims about R'hllor and Renly's death in the flames, Cressen is dismissed, and that next time we see Stannis he is a different man. Whatever happened between the time Cressen left Stannis in the room with Selyse until he rejoins Stannis at the dinner table, has changed Stannis' view of Mel and R'hllor. In the span of a few hours alone with Selyse and possibly Mel, Stannis went from complaining about his numbers to wanting to wage war solely based on Mel's visions. He must have been shown a great deal of power to make such a drastic change, and where would Stannis believe this power originates? R'hllor, because that is where Mel believes it originates. He may not like the idea of R'hllor, but he does not feel that he can deny the power of R'hllor.

Stannis then makes this comment in ACoK:

"It sounds as though you love my new god no more than you love my new maester."

It is debatable whether Stannis believes or doesn't believe in ACoK, but it is in no way explicitly stated that he doesn't believe.

Well argued. That's the quotation I was talking about.

Stannis in one passage expresses disbelieve not once but four times;

1-<I stopped believing in gods the day..>

2-<any gods who.. ..would never have my worship, I vowed>

3-<all I saw of either [justice or goodness] came from men>

4-<I know little and care less of gods.>

Versus ONE time that he expresses belief, and it's not in R'hllor as such, but in the power Melisandre has demonstrated.

His disavowal runs the gamut from so-so to quite strong ("I vowed") and in at least that strongest case (#2) he is almost certainly referring to The Seven, not gods in general. So maybe you're right, and he has 'accepted' R'hllor in some sense at this point. The 'you love my new god' remark would indicate that.

The thing I'm still uncomfortable about, and it's not because I disagree with your explanation, but that I more or less accept it, is that the whole thing seems to have been portrayed as a 'deal with the devil.' Stannis' allegiance to R'hllor is entirely self-serving (as I perceive this character's core to be.) He is looking for a supernatural power to help him gain the Iron Throne. And this is WELL before any point that he is seeking that power for any altruistic motive. He's never heard of the Others at this point, and won't until more than halfway through the next novel. I'd have to read the whole chapter again to have a better sense of it.

Anyway, I'm still of the opinion that there is much and more that's yet to be revealed about Melisandre and R'hllor, so I'm waiting on that knowledge hole to be patched. As it stands I'm not even sure that Mel is worshiping the same god that Thoros is. At times it seems not.

[direwienerdog]

Welcome to Stanfest XXXXIX. *sigh* *yawn*

[Undead Ned With No Head]

Oh seven save me another one of these.

[Le Dragone]

It's actually a great thread. This forum is definitely lacking when it comes to Stannis discussions. We need more of these, and they should be pinned and numbered.

[Thelastactionhero]

Well argued. That's the quotation I was talking about.

Stannis in one passage expresses disbelieve not once but four times;

1-<I stopped believing in gods the day..>

2-<any gods who.. ..would never have my worship, I vowed>

3-<all I saw of either [justice or goodness] came from men>

4-<I know little and care less of gods.>

Versus ONE time that he expresses belief, and it's not in R'hllor as such, but in the power Melisandre has demonstrated.

His disavowal runs the gamut from so-so to quite strong ("I vowed") and in at least that strongest case (#2) he is almost certainly referring to The Seven, not gods in general. So maybe you're right, and he has 'accepted' R'hllor in some sense at this point. The 'you love my new god' remark would indicate that.

The thing I'm still uncomfortable about, and it's not because I disagree with your explanation, but that I more or less accept it, is that the whole thing seems to have been portrayed as a 'deal with the devil.' Stannis' allegiance to R'hllor is entirely self-serving (as I perceive this character's core to be.) He is looking for a supernatural power to help him gain the Iron Throne. And this is WELL before any point that he is seeking that power for any altruistic motive. He's never heard of the Others at this point, and won't until more than halfway through the next novel. I'd have to read the whole chapter again to have a better sense of it.

Anyway, I'm still of the opinion that there is much and more that's yet to be revealed about Melisandre and R'hllor, so I'm waiting on that knowledge hole to be patched. As it stands I'm not even sure that Mel is worshiping the same god that Thoros is. At times it seems not.

I like some of what you're getting at here, and I definitely think that his relationship with Rhillor is a lot more complex and nuanced than some would admit. He's by no means a fanatic, and converting civilians to Rhillor is far from his first priority, but I think he does come to believe in the Azor Ahai prophecy on some level, or at least that he's the only man capable of filling the role. I certainly disagree that the core of the character is self-serving, though he certainly has been at certain points in the series. I actually think a lot of us would probably benefit from another reread of Stannis during the aCoK period in order to have a better vantage point when assessing his arc as a whole, because sometimes I catch even myself viewing Stannis through the romanticized prism of his triumphs in later books, rather than stepping back to see the whole picture.

I realize I've been saying this a bunch in the last few Stannis threads, but really it was those Jon POVs in aDwD that ultimately swayed me into the Stannis camp after he saved the Wall. Not that Jon's opinion is a final verdict of any sort, but it's hard for me to see his decision to save the Night's Watch as anything but selfless after that whole proclamation of Stan being "the king who still cared." It's an especially important vantage point in which to perceive the character because Jon is relatively objective in this instance, and at times, quite critical of Stannis. This polarizing feeling within Jon whether or not to support Stannis is something I think many of us experience as readers, because he is very flawed, and yet also extremely virtuous.

[Jared Baratheon]

if no one intrested in the topic why even bother replying unless you want to troll, no ones forcing you to click and read.

Stannis appeals to me because he rules through strength & justice were as all the other players use manilpulation and intrigue to advance there cause. He might be a littlke to stoic to appeal with charisma, hell he might even be a little autistic but you get exactly what you see with stannis and i admire that.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Hi, just passing by to say how awsome stannis is, as I do in this kind of threads.

[Leif]

I like him 'cause Davos likes him.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

There are more current Stannis threads than there are Wildlings, so this one is closed as redundant.

[/MOD]