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Comics VIII - the Crime Syndic8 of America


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#1 red snow

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:54 PM

Continuing on from the last thread - seems comic thread deaths are as permanent as comic character deaths.

With regards to Sharon Carter's death I honestly have to say that I'm immune to Marvel/DC deaths and I think Marvel is even worse than DC.
I haven't read the issue so it was maybe handled in a dramatic way but death is such a revolving door it's just a question of when.

I do think Remender has only killed small characters so far. I guess Apocalypse was kind of big but his best death was that of Archangel as it was at least a character death and handled dramatically. I'm still not so sure about the death of Fantomex given the amount of times he seemed to die within the series and his current trinity state.

What works with Walking Dead deaths is that you know they aren't coming back. Same for some of the other creator-owned titles such as " Y the last man" etc.

Edited by red snow, 30 August 2013 - 03:00 AM.


#2 The_Gallows_Knight

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 03:19 PM

I will never forgive Remender for killing Avalanche though.

#3 Ouroboros

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 04:10 PM

What works with Walking Dead deaths is that you know they aren't coming back. Same for some of the other creator-owned titles such as " Y the last man" etc.


What doesn't work with Walking Dead is that the deaths are so ham fisted half the time you end up rolling your eyes and stop reading it.

Or maybe that was just me.

#4 Lady Octarina

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 06:15 PM

It's amazing how Marvel gathers all the books I care about in the same week, every month. Uncanny Avengers was amazing, I absolutely loved how the Apocalypse twins sold their plans to Wanda, but what the hell was the problem with her face?! I could barely concentrate on the dialogue, I just kept laughing at that. Anyway, Wolverine and the X-Men was a adequate conclusion, made better by the two returns we all couldn't wait for. Young Avengers was excellent, though I still think, for such a good book, it has the least interesting villains in Marvel Now. But it has feels, that's what we all want. Thor only gets better; New Avengers was the best Infinity tie-in, not that I expected any different (#TeamNamor); Avengers Arena was entertaining (but frustrating how I didn't realize until then who that kid was related to); Thanos Rising was an excellent conclusion to what I consider the best Thanos story so far; and FF was what I imagine LSD must feel like + Bentley and Maximus being adorable.

Now, Captain America... I absolutely hate Sharon Carter, but I was not happy to see her fridged. She's out of the way, though, that's good enough for now, and it was a heroic death anyway; the only ones truly angry about it are the Tumblr people, but everything makes them angry, so why bother. Still,
Spoiler
This reminds me, in the middle of the Sharon fans' outrage, I've seen people complain even about Brubaker's run, that it was misogynist somehow. Was it, truly? Still haven't felt the need to check it out.

I will never forgive Remender for killing Avalanche though.


I didn't even know Avalanche was still alive until he killed him.

#5 salinea

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 07:30 PM

Remender killed Daken too (yes, already brought him back but I doubt it's permanent).

Significant because I don't think Marvel had had many other bisexual biracial characters able to carry on their own on going for a while (I mean, it's a bit man what, but yeah, there was Daken doing that. Bit of a waste to kill him to make Logan angsty if you ask me).

#6 Tarant

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 02:05 AM

Had no idea until just the other day that 2 Guns and CBGB were based on comic book properties.

#7 red snow

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 02:16 AM

Remender killed Daken too (yes, already brought him back but I doubt it's permanent).

Significant because I don't think Marvel had had many other bisexual biracial characters able to carry on their own on going for a while (I mean, it's a bit man what, but yeah, there was Daken doing that. Bit of a waste to kill him to make Logan angsty if you ask me).


What they should have done was make Daken not a mutant and then they'd have a Wolverine for their Marvel movies. He came out after the deal with Fox so they just might get away with it. As long as Disney don't mind having a bisexual character (Don't ask, Don't tell). Oh, wait a second, there's an upcoming terragen mist storyline that will give everyone powers. Line Daken up!

What doesn't work with Walking Dead is that the deaths are so ham fisted half the time you end up rolling your eyes and stop reading it.

Or maybe that was just me.


Well I became a bit too used to the shock factor in the end. Some of the earlier deaths didn't seem that hamfisted to me though - I thought some were kind of real in the random shit happens kind of way.


Now, Captain America... I absolutely hate Sharon Carter, but I was not happy to see her fridged. She's out of the way, though, that's good enough for now, and it was a heroic death anyway; the only ones truly angry about it are the Tumblr people, but everything makes them angry, so why bother.


Doesn't this mean that Cap America is now 12 years older? Or does he have some super-serum slowed ageing going on? That's quite a chunk of age to throw on a comic character otherwise. I wonder if other writers will acknowledge this and has their been any attempt to say when he disappeared with regards to the other titles eg did all this happen before his New Avengers mind-wipe or after?

#8 Lady Octarina

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 07:09 AM

Doesn't this mean that Cap America is now 12 years older? Or does he have some super-serum slowed ageing going on? That's quite a chunk of age to throw on a comic character otherwise. I wonder if other writers will acknowledge this and has their been any attempt to say when he disappeared with regards to the other titles eg did all this happen before his New Avengers mind-wipe or after?


Well, according to Remender (because that's difficult to see in JRJR's art), physically, he looks the same, which will basically lead him to go through the same kind of angst ("I can't have a family because I'll watch everyone I love die while I stay the same") that has been Wolverine's trademark for a while. But yeah, it will suck if the psychological impact of Dimension Z is limited to Remender's titles; on the other hand, Avengers Assemble only includes Cap when they need him for fun adventures, and Hickman is hardly interested in taking characterization that far on established characters. I mean, what difference does it make that Steve spent 12 years away if he'll barely get seven lines in the main Avengers book? As to when this happened in regards to other titles, I know it was sometime before Uncanny Avengers #9; the X-books are still happening around UA#5. It's hard to make the bridge with Hickman's books, but Hyperion and some of the other new Avengers appear on UA#11.

Edited by Lady Octarina, 30 August 2013 - 07:10 AM.


#9 salinea

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 07:30 AM

What they should have done was make Daken not a mutant and then they'd have a Wolverine for their Marvel movies. He came out after the deal with Fox so they just might get away with it. As long as Disney don't mind having a bisexual character (Don't ask, Don't tell). Oh, wait a second, there's an upcoming terragen mist storyline that will give everyone powers. Line Daken up!

You're probably less concerned about accuracy than making fun of the idea; but the deal with Fox obviously covers characters that are part of the franchise even if created post deal. XMFC has a few such characters.
Character being involved in Wolverine's franchise, mutant or not, is probably enough to have him count for it, too.

#10 red snow

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 08:06 AM

You're probably less concerned about accuracy than making fun of the idea; but the deal with Fox obviously covers characters that are part of the franchise even if created post deal. XMFC has a few such characters.
Character being involved in Wolverine's franchise, mutant or not, is probably enough to have him count for it, too.


It was more for fun but since they seem to have Wanda and Quicksilver in the Avengers I'm wondering how tight some of these rights deals are. Those two could be an exception given how long they've been associated with the Avengers but they were in the X-men titles first, By that logic it should only be a matter of time until Spidey and Wolverine's Avengers membership is set in stone. I do know Marvel can't call Wanda and Pietro "mutants" though.

If ALL mutants forever more belong to Fox then I can't really blame Marvel if they never create any more mutant characters.

Well, according to Remender (because that's difficult to see in JRJR's art), physically, he looks the same, which will basically lead him to go through the same kind of angst ("I can't have a family because I'll watch everyone I love die while I stay the same") that has been Wolverine's trademark for a while. But yeah, it will suck if the psychological impact of Dimension Z is limited to Remender's titles; on the other hand, Avengers Assemble only includes Cap when they need him for fun adventures, and Hickman is hardly interested in taking characterization that far on established characters. I mean, what difference does it make that Steve spent 12 years away if he'll barely get seven lines in the main Avengers book? As to when this happened in regards to other titles, I know it was sometime before Uncanny Avengers #9; the X-books are still happening around UA#5. It's hard to make the bridge with Hickman's books, but Hyperion and some of the other new Avengers appear on UA#11.


That's double unfortunate for Cap as he already knows what it's like to outlive his own generation. Knowing this will happen again is bound to suck. Then again it'll never happen thanks to Marvel sliding time. He doesn't know that though.

#11 salinea

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 08:38 AM

If ALL mutants forever more belong to Fox then I can't really blame Marvel if they never create any more mutant characters.

Some people did blame that for Decimation.

#12 Winterfell is Burning

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 07:05 PM

Doesn't this mean that Cap America is now 12 years older? Or does he have some super-serum slowed ageing going on? That's quite a chunk of age to throw on a comic character otherwise. I wonder if other writers will acknowledge this and has their been any attempt to say when he disappeared with regards to the other titles eg did all this happen before his New Avengers mind-wipe or afte


He has a super-serum slowed ageing going on, but anyway titles not written by Remender will probably ignore it. Which I think it's OK, honestly.

If ALL mutants forever more belong to Fox then I can't really blame Marvel if they never create any more mutant characters.


I can- the comics job is to tell good comic stories, not be a part of some dick measuring contest between two movie studios.

#13 Ouroboros

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 12:36 AM

Well, according to Remender (because that's difficult to see in JRJR's art), physically, he looks the same, which will basically lead him to go through the same kind of angst ("I can't have a family because I'll watch everyone I love die while I stay the same") that has been Wolverine's trademark for a while.


It's actually based on something Neil Gaiman wrote in Marvel 1602. I -think- that's the first time the SSS has been shown slowing down Cap's ageing.

#14 red snow

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 02:22 AM

He has a super-serum slowed ageing going on, but anyway titles not written by Remender will probably ignore it. Which I think it's OK, honestly.



I can- the comics job is to tell good comic stories, not be a part of some dick measuring contest between two movie studios.


I have a feeling the SSS has been linked with slower ageing in the past somewhere with other characters too. I guess healing factor/slower ageing go hand in hand. At least he seems to get on well with Logan.

I do think it's a different ball-game when you are owned by a large company like Disney or Time Warner in that such management can and arguably should be exercised. I agree that storytelling could suffer though. Also, I wonder if Marvel gets money for each time a new mutant character is used or whether the deal was a blanket one? Given how Fox have mutants pop up for the sake of it I expect it is blanket unless the film is mainly about that character. I also wonder whether Fox is allowed to create its own mutant characters? Not that Fox would dream of doing anything original but if the option is there that could be interesting - especially if it worked and Marvel couldn't use the character in comics.

#15 AverageGuy

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 03:15 AM

It's actually based on something Neil Gaiman wrote in Marvel 1602. I -think- that's the first time the SSS has been shown slowing down Cap's ageing.

It popped up in the 90's with Heroes Reborn. Cap was never frozen in the iceberg, the serum constantly rejuvenated him.
Don't know what I was thinking. Something called "Heroes Reborn" could never have existed.

#16 red snow

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 05:10 AM

It popped up in the 90's with Heroes Reborn. Cap was never frozen in the iceberg, the serum constantly rejuvenated him.
Don't know what I was thinking. Something called "Heroes Reborn" could never have existed.


That's where I read it! Weird how we both have the same false memories...

#17 Lady Octarina

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:13 AM

It's actually based on something Neil Gaiman wrote in Marvel 1602. I -think- that's the first time the SSS has been shown slowing down Cap's ageing.


Dearest Roh-jaz? I don't recall that, but then the only thing I remember from Marvel 1602 is Magneto as a creepy Inquisitor.

I have a feeling the SSS has been linked with slower ageing in the past somewhere with other characters too. I guess healing factor/slower ageing go hand in hand. At least he seems to get on well with Logan.


I would read a limited series where Cap, Wolverine, and whoever else has that problem, are just being old men recalling the good old days (or not recalling it) 200 years from now. Special guests including Thor, Cable, and any friendly time-travelers.

Which couldn't happen now that Wolvie will age normally for a while. Oh well.

#18 red snow

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 11:37 AM

Dearest Roh-jaz? I don't recall that, but then the only thing I remember from Marvel 1602 is Magneto as a creepy Inquisitor.



I would read a limited series where Cap, Wolverine, and whoever else has that problem, are just being old men recalling the good old days (or not recalling it) 200 years from now. Special guests including Thor, Cable, and any friendly time-travelers.

Which couldn't happen now that Wolvie will age normally for a while. Oh well.


It could be a fun series. Throw Deadpool in for laughs as well.Grumpy old super-men /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Don't worry Wolverine will have his powers back within a year of Marvel time - we'll never notice. It's funny how we consider the non-ageing characters when none of them ever really age.

#19 Little Valkyrie

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 02:56 PM

Also, I wonder if Marvel gets money for each time a new mutant character is used or whether the deal was a blanket one? Given how Fox have mutants pop up for the sake of it I expect it is blanket unless the film is mainly about that character. I also wonder whether Fox is allowed to create its own mutant characters? Not that Fox would dream of doing anything original but if the option is there that could be interesting - especially if it worked and Marvel couldn't use the character in comics.


IIRC, I think it's that any new mutant characters created are the domain of Fox for film exploitation, so the attitude has been something of a "Why should we make more IP for Fox?" Which isn't always very conducive to good storytelling, natch, but there are a lot of neglected mutant characters out there anyway.

#20 Lady Octarina

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 12:16 PM

It could be a fun series. Throw Deadpool in for laughs as well.Grumpy old super-men /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Don't worry Wolverine will have his powers back within a year of Marvel time - we'll never notice. It's funny how we consider the non-ageing characters when none of them ever really age.


We also have Magneto, who's always aging backwards.