Stannis is NOT a hypocrite

[Lord Nightstalker]

Many people claim Stannis is a hypocrite because he killed Renly for rebelling against himself, but had himself rebelled against Aerys, the rightful king.

However, an oath of fealty cuts both ways. The oaths of fealty between the Reeds and Bran and Cately and Brienne show that the ruler has obligations towarss his vassals.

Aerys reneged on his side of the oath by attempting to execute Robert and Ned even though tbey were innocent, and refusing to offer Brandon and Rickard a fair trial. Since Aerys had broken his side of the oath of fealty, Stannis had every right to rebel.

[Toxspecific]

This is something everybody knows yet refuses to accept bro. There's no justifying Renly, massive douchebag that he was. He was a usurper by all criterion, and usurping and reading to freaking kill Stannis anyway.

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

And the nile isn't just a river in Egypt.

[Toxspecific]

It's just one of those situations where I am surprised an opinion even exist. Like 'Cersei isn't evil' here comes defending Renly. I mean, just how? How can you say he didn't deserve to die? And why does everyone forget he planned on killing Stannis as well?

[Sansa_Stark]

You know what. These past few weeks got me thinking about Stannis. Especially with GRRM confirming that Stannis was righteous and whatnot, I can't help but feel that I should list Stannis as the greatest hero alive in ASOIAF right now.

Hope he takes the throne from Tommen and defeats the the Targs.

All hail the rightful king.

[The Angels' Prophet]

It's just one of those situations where I am surprised an opinion even exist. Like 'Cersei isn't evil' here comes defending Renly. I mean, just how? How can you say he didn't deserve to die? And why does everyone forget he planned on killing Stannis as well?

What makes the difference, though, is how Stan chose to do it.

Anyway, I don't think hypocrite fits Stan very well. I compare Stan to pre-season 3 Walt from BB. I think Stannis is using the excuses that he is "protecting the realm" and is "the rightful King" because he wants to be king. However, like Walt, he doesn't want to admit it to himself. So he's lying to himself, IMO.

[Mikkel]

But... but... Stannis isn't a teenager with an emo attitude and/or a somewhat loose grasp on reality! How can he possibly be a hero?

[Rhymes with Weak]

Well, if Stannis' main fault is him being a hypocrite (debatable) then he is a pretty swell guy compared to most of the characters in the series.

[Sansa_Stark]

What makes the difference, though, is how Stan chose to do it.

Anyway, I don't think hypocrite fits Stan very well. I compare Stan to pre-season 3 Walt from BB. I think Stannis is using the excuses that he is "protecting the realm" and is "the rightful King" because he wants to be king. However, like Walt, he doesn't want to admit it to himself. So he's lying to himself, IMO.

But GRRM claimed that he is a righteous man. That should be proof enough that he wants to defend the realm.

[Corvo Attano]

I'm a Renly supporter. Stannis is a huge hypocrite and doesn't deserve squat. The only reason I want Stan to succeed is because I want Davos to have a happy ending.

[Toxspecific]

Stannis had a 10x smaller army, how the hell else was he supposed to kill Renly? :bang:

But... but... Stannis isn't a teenager with an emo attitude and/or a somewhat loose grasp on reality! How can he possibly be a hero?

That moment when somebody says something that's always on your mind. Respect for you ser. And if anyone thinks Stannis wants to be King they are nuts; he said the Throne kills its sitters, crown burning his flesh, etc etc etc. As for someone choosing to delude themselves by thinking Stannis worships the red god, nuff' said. Learn how to pick up hints.

[The Angels' Prophet]

But GRRM claimed that he is a righteous man. That should be proof enough that he wants to defend the realm.

Where did GRRM say he was righteous? I'm just wondering about the wording, is all.

I think Stan is a good person deep down, but I also think he needs to accept that he does have greed for the Iron Throne at this point, so he can evolve as a character, either down a higher path, or a lower one.

[Toxspecific]

Where did GRRM say he was righteous? I'm just wondering about the wording, is all.

I think Stan is a good person deep down, but I also think he needs to accept that he does have greed for the Iron Throne at this point, so he can evolve as a character, either down a higher path, or a lower one.

I know the quote, I discussed it in depth with other users. GRRM said in spite of everything Stannis is a righteous man, he was summing up Stannis' past actions and giving an overall verdict.

And again; read what Stannis says. He said he had a dream of the crown burning his flesh off, and sounded weary as hell about becoming King. Don't put thoughts in his head the same way people put words in other's mouths.

[Sansa_Stark]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=49161

In spite of all his flaws, the man is righteous. He went to defend the realm with the watch. His first motivation being duty.

[The Angels' Prophet]

Stannis had a 10x smaller army, how the hell else was he supposed to kill Renly? :bang:

That moment when somebody says something that's always on your mind. Respect for you ser. And if anyone thinks Stannis wants to be King they are nuts; he said the Throne kills its sitters, crown burning his flesh, etc etc etc. As for someone choosing to delude themselves by thinking Stannis worships the red god, nuff' said. Learn how to pick up hints.

But the way he did it was wrong. It doesn't matter if it was the only way. It was still wrong.

Renly would have made a fine king, with a proper Hand (preferably Stannis, but others could have worked too). Why would Stannis kill him if he didn't lust for power himself? Lust for a chance to prove himself? Because he adheres to the law above all else? Well, we already know he doesn't, since he betrayed the rightful king before for his brother. So why did he do it?

Because, deep down, he wants the power. I'm not thinking less of him for it, for humanity naturally yearns for power, but he needs to accept it.

[Sansa_Stark]

A righteous man wouldn't kill his brother for power. He did it because Renly was a traitor to the realm.

[Toxspecific]

But the way he did it was wrong. It doesn't matter if it was the only way. It was still wrong.

Renly would have made a fine king, with a proper Hand (preferably Stannis, but others could have worked too). Why would Stannis kill him if he didn't lust for power himself? Lust for a chance to prove himself? Because he adheres to the law above all else? Well, we already know he doesn't, since he betrayed the rightful king before for his brother. So why did he do it?

Because, deep down, he wants the power. I'm not thinking less of him for it, for humanity naturally yearns for power, but he needs to accept it.

So he should die being stripped of his rights? This is Westeros, even the good characters fight for their rights.

Is killing your own brother with your much larger group of goons any more honourable than killing him with a shadow? Only difference is less deaths in the latter case.

[Ramsay B.]

Where did GRRM say he was righteous? I'm just wondering about the wording, is all.

I think Stan is a good person deep down, but I also think he needs to accept that he does have greed for the Iron Throne at this point, so he can evolve as a character, either down a higher path, or a lower one.

Yup. He is righteous and I do like him but he definitely wants that IT, especially him feeling so inadequate when compared to his older brother.

[Mikkel]

I really fail to see why the method of execution matters, assuming we can agree that Renly was a traitor.

That's before you even consider the fact that Stannis had no direct influence on Renly's death - he believed Melisandre was right in predicting the death of Renly (and she was), but he had no knowledge of Shadowbabies or assassination. Presumably, he thought Renly would die in the battle, but we don't know exactly what he believed beforehand.

[The Angels' Prophet]

I know the quote, I discussed it in depth with other users. GRRM said in spite of everything Stannis is a righteous man, he was summing up Stannis' past actions and giving an overall verdict.

And again; read what Stannis says. He said he had a dream of the crown burning his flesh off, and sounded weary as hell about becoming King. Don't put thoughts in his head the same way people put words in other's mouths.

This is all just my opinion and take on Stan's character, but I just find it odd that he was so upset he lost the Battle of the Blackwater, why he was so desperate he was willing to kill his little brother (indirectly, of course) when he tried to steal the throne. If he really didn't want the Throne, he could just have given the throne to Renly, and gone back to Dragonstone in peace ( or become Renly's Hand, which would have been great). Aemon did, why not Stannis?

As too GRRM's comment, I agree he is still righteous, still trying to do the right thing, but I think he does want that crown, and that fact scares him.

I'm not putting thoughts in Stan's head; after all we have never gotten a POV of the guy; but just forming and sharing my opinion of his character. Not saying whether its right or wrong. This isn't a theory, It's an interpretation.