Stannis is NOT a hypocrite

[Antler's Fury]

I'd still like to know how all the fervent Stannis fans defend that Stannis seized NW property and let Mel burn weirwoods. I've just re-read the chapter where Maester Luwin tells Bran about the war between the first men and the CotF, which was the last time weirwood trees were burnt, and it meant chaos for Westeros. That kind of confirmed my suspicion that unless the books take an unlikely twist and reveal that Mels actually is the saviour come again, the burning of the weirwoods spelled Stannis' doom. I'm fine with a bit of pragmatism on his part, but I think this was when he crossed the line, as this served no purpose (except - who knows - to bring about the snow on Stannis' army, the CotF were known for controlling the elements to fight their enemies).

Stannis didn't burn weirwoods plural. He only burned the one at SE and had the wildlings burn pieces of weirwood to signify their allegiance to the Red God, and thus him personally. Conversion to the Red God's religion was part of Stannis' price for letting them in. The wildlings needed fast track integration into Westeros, and this way, they are not just bending the knee to a king, but worshipping a messiah. I personally would have let them keep their gods to make the assimilation less humiliating. However, one could argue that the wildings need to be humiliated and completely demoralized before they give up thousands of years of ingrained hostility towards kneelers, so that they don't start raiding and kidnapping people once inside Westeros. If the CotF created the blizzard, then they are rather clumsy, considering that it affected not only Stannis and his Queen's Men, but also King's Men, Freys, and Northmen, who either also follow the Old Gods, or are indifferent to them. As far as the NW castles are concerned, Jon actually forbids Stannis from seizing any save for the Nightfort, and Stannis reluctantly complies.

[Sullen]

He actually tried. He told John Arryn, because His brother didn't bother listening to anything Stannis has ever said. What was He supposed to do? In fact Renly was hunting with Robert the time He got killed.

Yes, he told Jon.

He didn't try to tell Robert once Jon got whacked, that makes him a traitor in the eyes of the law.

[Antler's Fury]

Yes, he told Jon.

He didn't try to tell Robert once Jon got whacked, that makes him a traitor in the eyes of the law.

No it doesn't. Stannis' job is to be loyal to and protect Robert and his heirs. If Stannis tells Robert about the incest and Robert doesn't believe him, then not only is Stannis, Robert's heir, in danger, but Robert himself is in danger, because the Lannisters will kill him ASAP to prevent the seeds of doubt from being planted in Robert's mind. Recall that all of this could have been avoided if Robert had just trusted Stannis, but that's Robert's fault. Stannis can hardly do his duty by Robert if Robert won't give him the chance.

[otherbeef]

Davos flat out calls Stannis a hypocrite and Stan doesn't disagree.

[Rhymes with Weak]

Davos flat out calls Stannis a hypocrite and Stan doesn't disagree.

Usually quotes come along with a statement like that.

[otherbeef]

Usually quotes come along with a statement like that.

Stannis babbles about how this and that lord owe him fealty as their rightful king, not to their lieges. davos says as you stayed loyal to aerys, something something, we've all read the books. this has nothing to do with Renly, but about the loyalty of any vassals.

[Sullen]

No it doesn't. Stannis' job is to be loyal to and protect Robert and his heirs. If Stannis tells Robert about the incest and Robert doesn't believe him, then not only is Stannis, Robert's heir, in danger, but Robert himself is in danger, because the Lannisters will kill him ASAP to prevent the seeds of doubt from being planted in Robert's mind. Recall that all of this could have been avoided if Robert had just trusted Stannis, but that's Robert's fault. Stannis can hardly do his duty by Robert if Robert won't give him the chance.

So Robert dying and Stannis living is the only way to go.

How very fortunate for Stannis.

And Robert did trust Stannis, he gave him the seat destined for the Crowned King and made him Master of Ships, that counts for something. Stannis only suffers from a low self-esteem and a pretty serious victimization complex.

[Draco_Dracul]

No it doesn't. Stannis' job is to be loyal to and protect Robert and his heirs. If Stannis tells Robert about the incest and Robert doesn't believe him, then not only is Stannis, Robert's heir, in danger, but Robert himself is in danger, because the Lannisters will kill him ASAP to prevent the seeds of doubt from being planted in Robert's mind. Recall that all of this could have been avoided if Robert had just trusted Stannis, but that's Robert's fault. Stannis can hardly do his duty by Robert if Robert won't give him the chance.

Yet Robert has every reason in the world to go along with it, even if he doesn't actually believe it. He despises Cersei, owes Tywin a lot of money, and can see that Joffery is not the best heir. Additionally, if Stannis doesn't believe he has enough evidence to convince Robert, he clearly doesn't have enough evidence to convince the realm meaning that his rebellion will cause succession crises to become far more frequent than they have been. If he does not believe that he can convince a man that has every reason to act as if he believed him, then to think that he can press his claim and ever be though anymore than a usurper is madness. The other possibility is that after the death of Jon Arryn he came to the conclusion that letting Robert die with no legitimate heirs (whether by Lannister plot, his lifestyle finally catching up to him, or both) he could gain the throne and finally have the validation and prestige that he feels he is owed for his years of loyal service.

[Antler's Fury]

So Robert dying and Stannis living is the only way to go.

How very fortunate for Stannis.

What alternative do you envision? Robert believing Stannis and executing Cersei and the kids? Robert didn't even believe Ned's reasons not to trust Jaime, so its not likely he would have believed Stannis, especially considering that Robert had a habit of ignoring hard truths he did not wish to believe. Even if he did believe Stannis, he would probably ignore it, just as he's ignored numerous other Lannister warning signs, such as his frigid relationship with Cersei, or his sons being absolutely nothing like him.

Stannis was dealt a crappy hand and tried to work with it as best he could. He told JA knowing that Robert trusted JA, but once he died, Stannis was stuck. Robert's imbecility did not help matters. The man had an irrational obsession with surrounding himself with as many Lannisters as possible. He married Cersei out of necessity, yes, but he allowed a Lannister on his KG, he allowed himself to be heavily indebted to the Lannister patriarch, had a Lannister supporting maester, and even Lannister squires, not to mention a Red Keep full of Lannister, rather than Baratheon, guards. Stannis could not save Robert from himself, but he could summone what strength Robert gave him, so that is what he did.

And Robert did trust Stannis, he gave him the seat destined for the Crowned King and made him Master of Ships, that counts for something. Stannis only suffers from a low self-esteem and a pretty serious victimization complex.

Robert gave Stannis a pile of rocks with a lot of symbolic value, but few men and little money, even though he earned Storm's End. He defiled Stannis' wedding bed on his wedding night. He refused to grant him the Wardenship of the East and instead wanted it to go to Jaime. The only real power he gave Stannis was Master of Ships, and even that does not mean he trusted him; Robert refers to his council as being full of flatterers and fools save for Ned and JA; he doesn't see Stannis as separate from that disparaging label.

[Sullen]

What alternative do you envision? Robert believing Stannis and executing Cersei and the kids? Robert didn't even believe Ned's reasons not to trust Jaime, so its not likely he would have believed Stannis, especially considering that Robert had a habit of ignoring hard truths he did not wish to believe. Even if he did believe Stannis, he would probably ignore it, just as he's ignored numerous other Lannister warning signs, such as his frigid relationship with Cersei, or his sons being absolutely nothing like him.

Stannis was dealt a crappy hand and tried to work with it as best he could. He told JA knowing that Robert trusted JA, but once he died, Stannis was stuck. Robert's imbecility did not help matters. The man had an irrational obsession with surrounding himself with as many Lannisters as possible. He married Cersei out of necessity, yes, but he allowed a Lannister on his KG, he allowed himself to be heavily indebted to the Lannister patriarch, had a Lannister supporting maester, and even Lannister squires, not to mention a Red Keep full of Lannister, rather than Baratheon, guards. Stannis could not save Robert from himself, but he could summone what strength Robert gave him, so that is what he did.

I envision Stannis not committing treason and telling Robert, should Robert believe him, Cersei gets the block. Should Robert get pissed, Stannis flees to Dragonstone. Instead, Stannis leaves for Dragonstone as soon as things look like they could be dangerous for him. He decided to save his skin instead of trying to save his King as soon as things could have been bad for him.

And Robert didn't have an "obsession" with Lannisters, he indulged his wife and her father's family with trivial positions. He owes them a lot, the honours he bestows on the Lannisters aren't ridiculous.

[Sullen]

Robert gave Stannis a pile of rocks with a lot of symbolic value, but few men and little money, even though he earned Storm's End. He defiled Stannis' wedding bed on his wedding night. He refused to grant him the Wardenship of the East and instead wanted it to go to Jaime. The only real power he gave Stannis was Master of Ships, and even that does not mean he trusted him; Robert refers to his council as being full of flatterers and fools save for Ned and JA; he doesn't see Stannis as separate from that disparaging label.

Stannis earned nothing, he simply did his duty. Storm's End was still Robert's to give away, and he chose to give it to his other brother. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch over.

Wardenship of the East went to Jaime, because keeping the Lannisters happy is more important than indulging Stannis, who's only doing his duty.

And Robert apologized for the whole business with the Florent girl, if I recall correctly.

[Antler's Fury]

Yet Robert has every reason in the world to go along with it, even if he doesn't actually believe it. He despises Cersei, owes Tywin a lot of money, and can see that Joffery is not the best heir.

Yes, ideally. But we know that Robert has a habit of avoiding hard truths, and the hard truth that he has been cuckolded would be the most difficult to accept for a man of his sexual accomplishments. Moreover, he's ignored warning signs about the Lannisters before. He knows it would be bad to be deeply in debt to Tywin, but does it anyway. He knows that having the Kingslayer on his Kingsguard is just asking for trouble, but keeps him instead of at least sending him back to CR, or better yet, the Wall. Moreover, he's repeatedly ignored Stannis, whether it is his wanting to imprison the rebellious Storm Lords during RR, wanting SE followimg RR, or wanting to outlaw prostitution. The only courtier he really listened to was JA, and with him gone, Stannis was stuck because he knew Robert saw him as just another "fool" in his court, loyalty notwithstanding.

Additionally, if Stannis doesn't believe he has enough evidence to convince Robert, he clearly doesn't have enough evidence to convince the realm meaning that his rebellion will cause succession crises to become far more frequent than they have been. If he does not believe that he can convince a man that has every reason to act as if he believed him, then to think that he can press his claim and ever be though anymore than a usurper is madness.

But he never expected to convince the realm, because the realm is clearly not interested in looking at the hair color of bastards, or perusing geneology books. By this point, Joff has already been crowned as have Renly and Robb, and no amount of quibbling over rudimentary Mendelian genetics is going to convince them otherwise. He has to enforce his rights with what military power he can muster.

The other possibility is that after the death of Jon Arryn he came to the conclusion that letting Robert die with no legitimate heirs (whether by Lannister plot, his lifestyle finally catching up to him, or both) he could gain the throne and finally have the validation and prestige that he feels he is owed for his years of loyal service.

If the crown was what he wanted, why not just keep his suspicions to himself, not tell JA, and then revolt against Joff once Robert dies, just as he actually did? The fact that he told JA in the first place suggests that he wanted Robert to know.

[Antler's Fury]

Should Robert get pissed, Stannis flees to Dragonstone. Instead, Stannis leaves for Dragonstone as soon as things look like they could be dangerous for him. He decided to save his skin instead of trying to save his King as soon as things could have been bad for him.

But that's just it. If Robert doesn't believe him, then both his skin and Roberts are now in danger, because the Lannisters have reason to kill Robert ASAP before Joff's paternity is investigated further. Stannis has given away his advantage just like Ned did, and gained nothing from it, aside from potentially being executed by Robert.

And Robert didn't have an "obsession" with Lannisters, he indulged his wife and her father's family with trivial positions. He owes them a lot, the honours he bestows on the Lannisters aren't ridiculous.

He owed Stannis even more. Stannis stuck with him from the start of RR, while the Lannisters were opportunists, who jumped in at the end when the rebellion was essentially decided. And don't you find it a bit odd that we never hear of single Baratheon guard, or squire in the Red Keep? Rewarding the Lannisters is one thing, but doing it at the expense of the Baratheons themselves is just stupidity.

Stannis earned nothing, he simply did his duty. Storm's End was still Robert's to give away, and he chose to give it to his other brother. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch over.

Sure, but he did more to deserve it than Renly.

Wardenship of the East went to Jaime, because keeping the Lannisters happy is more important than indulging Stannis, who's only doing his duty.

And the Lannisters are not simply doing theirs by holding the Wardenship of the West? Giving them two Wardenships is simply dangerous, as Ned points out. Robert doesn't even give a good reason to deny Stannis, and insists on giving the Lannisters enough power to destablize the balance of power in his realm.

And Robert apologized for the whole business with the Florent girl, if I recall correctly.

But the fact that he was careless and brazen enough to humiliate Stannis suggests that he did not hold him in very high esteem. I doubt he would have done that to Jon Arryn or Ned's wedding beds.

[Sullen]

But that's just it. If Robert doesn't believe him, then both his skin and Roberts are now in danger, because the Lannisters have reason to kill Robert ASAP before Joff's paternity is investigated further. Stannis has given away his advantage just like Ned did, and gained nothing from it, aside from potentially being executed by Robert.

Robert and Stannis's lives were already in danger.

And Stannis telling Robert doesn't immediately mean that the Lannisters know, they aren't omniscient.

He owed Stannis even more. Stannis stuck with him from the start of RR, while the Lannisters were opportunists, who jumped in at the end when the rebellion was essentially decided. And don't you find it a bit odd that we never hear of single Baratheon guard, or squire in the Red Keep? Rewarding the Lannisters is one thing, but doing it at the expense of the Baratheons themselves is just stupidity.

By Stannis's own logic, he owed him nothing.

You do not reward someone simply because they did their duty, and Robert needs to secure his alliance with the Westerlands. As for Baratheon guards, Robert technically doesn't need them, the King's Guard and the Goldcloaks are supposedly his.

Sure, but he did more to deserve it than Renly.

But Robert felt like giving it to Renly was a better idea, and Robert is King.

And the Lannisters are not simply doing theirs by holding the Wardenship of the West? Giving them two Wardenships is simply dangerous, as Ned points out. Robert doesn't even give a good reason to deny Stannis, and insists on giving the Lannisters enough power to destablize the balance of power in his realm.

The Lannisters are treacherous, and unlike Stannis they don't claim to be exactly dutiful. Also, the title of Warden is mostly symbolic, it doesn't really grant Jaime any power over the East.

But the fact that he was careless and brazen enough to humiliate Stannis suggests that he did not hold him in very high esteem. I doubt he would have done that to Jon Arryn or Ned's wedding beds.

It doesn't show that Robert distrusts or hates him either.

Robert, the King, of all people, apologized to Stannis, that counts for something.

[Antler's Fury]

Robert and Stannis's lives were already in danger.

No they weren't. From Stannis' perspective, Arryn was murdered because of the investigation. In contrast, had the Lannisters wanted to murder Robert, they could have done it years ago, after the kids were born, to secure their usurpation and preempt any investigations into paternity. Hence, Stannis' conclusion that he is in danger for knowing about the investigation, but Robert is not because of his ignorance, is a logical one.

And Stannis telling Robert doesn't immediately mean that the Lannisters know, they aren't omniscient.

In a Red Keep full of Varys' Littlefinger's and Cersei's spies? That's why these Lannister squires, for instance, are problematic. Robert may see them as mere trivial rewards, but they extend Lannister influence through espionage.

By Stannis's own logic, he owed him nothing.

You do not reward someone simply because they did their duty, and Robert needs to secure his alliance with the Westerlands.

Weren't the Lannisters merely doing their duty by bending the knee to Robert? Robert had already secured his alliance through the marriage. All the extra gifts were unnecessary open handedness, and dangerous too.

As for Baratheon guards, Robert technically doesn't need them, the King's Guard and the Goldcloaks are supposedly his.

The KG and GCs protect his family too, yet the Lannisters see no reason not to bring personal guards into the RK. Even Ned and Arryn bring personal guardsmen with them, so there's no reason for Robert not to do so. Allowing the Lannisters to surround him with their men, instead of bringing in his own is simply laxity on Robert's part. In fact, Robert knows the GCs are lead by a corrupt man, but, as usual, chooses to ignore it.

But Robert felt like giving it to Renly was a better idea, and Robert is King.

Which is why Stannis only complains about it, instead of actively challenging Robert. That said, this only supports the idea that Robert trusted Stannis very little.

The Lannisters are treacherous, and unlike Stannis they don't claim to be exactly dutiful.

All the more reason to give them nothing beyond the bare minumum necessary to secure their loyalty, and then crush them with the combined power of the STAB alliance should they try anything stupid.

Also, the title of Warden is mostly symbolic, it doesn't really grant Jaime any power over the East.

No, the title of Warden is explicitly non-symbolic. It gives the holder power over the military forces of the region in question. This is why Ned insists that the Lannisters not get it, since it would give them way too much power. Heck, Robert himself knows the value of the title, since he refuses to allow a sickly child like Robert Arryn to wield such power.

It doesn't show that Robert distrusts or hates him either.

Robert, the King, of all people, apologized to Stannis, that counts for something.

But it still does not mean that he trusted Stannis any more than any other SC member save Ned and Arryn, which is to say, not that much.

[Sullen]

No they weren't. From Stannis' perspective, Arryn was murdered because of the investigation. In contrast, had the Lannisters wanted to murder Robert, they could have done it years ago, after the kids were born, to secure their usurpation and preempt any investigations into paternity. Hence, Stannis' conclusion that he is in danger for knowing about the investigation, but Robert is not because of his ignorance, is a logical one.

By fleeing, Stannis shows that he knows about the incest.

Thus it's only a matter of time before he starts yapping.

Thus killing Robert soon would work in the Lannisters's favour.

In a Red Keep full of Varys' Littlefinger's and Cersei's spies? That's why these Lannister squires, for instance, are problematic. Robert may see them as mere trivial rewards, but they extend Lannister influence through espionage.

Who says they have to talk in the Keep, or in the presence of anybody?

Weren't the Lannisters merely doing their duty by bending the knee to Robert? Robert had already secured his alliance through the marriage. All the extra gifts were unnecessary open handedness, and dangerous too.

They were, but we're judging Stannis here, by Stannis's own expectations towards his subjects. We already know of the Lannisters's dishonourable conduct. And they weren't unnecessary open-handedness, Robert needs to keep Tywin happy.

The KG and GCs protect his family too, yet the Lannisters see no reason not to bring personal guards into the RK. Even Ned and Arryn bring personal guardsmen with them, so there's no reason for Robert not to do so. Allowing the Lannisters to surround him with their men, instead of bringing in his own is simply laxity on Robert's part. In fact, Robert knows the GCs are lead by a corrupt man, but, as usual, chooses to ignore it.

The King's Guard is his personal guard, it doesn't go much further than that.

Which is why Stannis only complains about it, instead of actively challenging Robert. That said, this only supports the idea that Robert trusted Stannis very little.

And Stannis complaining about it is exactly why he is a hypocrite, considering he would have done the same in Robert's shoes, and would have given the same answer. ("I am the King, I decide.)

Also, it could simply show that Robert preferred Renly (Which is perfectly understandable) or thought he would be more competent. If I prefer one of my brothers to the other, does it actively mean I distrust the other one?

All the more reason to give them nothing beyond the bare minumum necessary to secure their loyalty, and then crush them with the combined power of the STAB alliance should they try anything stupid.

Robert is doing what he considers the bare minimum to keep the Lannisters happy.

Robert owes a lot of money to Tywin, he has to return the favour.

No, the title of Warden is explicitly non-symbolic. It gives the holder power over the military forces of the region in question. This is why Ned insists that the Lannisters not get it, since it would give them way too much power. Heck, Robert himself knows the value of the title, since he refuses to allow a sickly child like Robert Arryn to wield such power.

Tell me, do you really believe the men of the Stormlands and the Vale would fight for Jaime Lannister simply because he is Warden of the East?

The title is an empty honour, nothing more.

[Draco_Dracul]

If the crown was what he wanted, why not just keep his suspicions to himself, not tell JA, and then revolt against Joff once Robert dies, just as he actually did? The fact that he told JA in the first place suggests that he wanted Robert to know.

My reasoning is that he initially did his duty like he always did, but the death of Jon Arryn combined with Robert rejecting him for hand (which is what really punches a whole in the he desperately feared for his life hypothesis) and his bitterness over Ned's relationship with Robert led him to leave Robert to his fate. If the truth was uncovered by someone else and the Lannisters are removed, he can grit his teeth like he always does when his duty goes unrewarded, if it doesn't he can become king like he's always deserved for being so dutiful.

[Antler's Fury]

By fleeing, Stannis shows that he knows about the incest.

Thus it's only a matter of time before he starts yapping.

Thus killing Robert soon would work in the Lannisters's favour.

Stannis' fleeing isn't what alerts Cersei, its JA and Ned's investigations, which prompt her to kill Robert ASAP to make sure that Joffrey succeeds uncontested. Therefore, Stannis telling Robert about the incest endangers Robert more than Stannis fleeing, since his fleeing is characterized by him NOT yapping.

Who says they have to talk in the Keep, or in the presence of anybody?

Even if they don't talk in the presence of anybody, they still risk being overheard by Varys' spies in the walls. I can't think of anywhere in the RK that would be completely safe from prying eyes save for the godswood, and even then, Sansa could only get away with going there because she worshipped the Old Gods. Moreover, you'e assuming that Robert would keep his mouth shut after dismissing Stannis, instead of, say, telling Cersei or the council about Stannis' accusations.

They were, but we're judging Stannis here, by Stannis's own expectations towards his subjects. We already know of the Lannisters's dishonourable conduct.

We're judging Stannis' expectations of Robert based on Stannis' view of Robert's own actions. In Stannis' eyes, if the Lannisters can get stuff, there's no reason why Stannis shouldn't get stuff too, since he did more for Robert than the Lannisters. If Robert didn't give anyone any stuff, then Stannis wouldn't be complaining. His problem is with the inconsistency: Renly and the Lannisters get more stuff from Robert than Stannis does despite doing less for him.

And they weren't unnecessary open-handedness, Robert needs to keep Tywin happy.

He was already happy. His daughter was married to the king, and his grandson would eventually succeed Robert. It was Cersei who was not happy. She was the one who, for instance, wanted Jaime to have more power, and the Lannister squires and guardsmen would be there because she nagged Robert to elevate her people. And Robert hated Cersei, yet was willing to give her family more and more power. Wanting to keep your in laws happy is no excuse for giving them more control over your court than yourself.

The King's Guard is his personal guard, it doesn't go much further than that.

The KG protects the royal family too. They protect the Queen, which is why Jaime complained about Aerys' raping Rhaella. They also protect the heir to the throne, as evidenced by Barristan riding with Rhaegar, and the KG protecting Maekar and Aerion during the Trial of the Seven in the Hedge Knight.

And Stannis complaining about it is exactly why he is a hypocrite, considering he would have done the same in Robert's shoes, and would have given the same answer. ("I am the King, I decide.)

If he were Robert, he would have given SE to Stannis, which is why he is complaining. He isn't complaining about Robert's right to make the decision, only that Robert made a mistake, that Stannis wishes to rectify. He knows that the king's decision is binding, which is why he wants to change it.

Also, it could simply show that Robert preferred Renly (Which is perfectly understandable) or thought he would be more competent.

Renly was a five year old child at the time, so competence was clearly not the issue.

Robert is doing what he considers the bare minimum to keep the Lannisters happy.

Robert owes a lot of money to Tywin, he has to return the favour.

But none of what Robert did cancelled out the debt he owed Tywin. Robert essentially handed over control of his court to Cersei. That's inexcusable for a king to do regardless of how much debt you are in. At best this means Robert was a weak man, cowed by Tywin into yielding power rather than fighting back.

Tell me, do you really believe the men of the Stormlands and the Vale would fight for Jaime Lannister simply because he is Warden of the East?

The title is an empty honour, nothing more.

If Robert demanded it, they would have to do it or be branded traitors, disobeying a duly appointed Warden. The only reason they disobey is because Robert is dead, and because no one actually calls upon them to fight. Lysa, who they are subordinate to, meekly accepts Lannister rule. Warden of the East is only an empty title in peace time. In war, it is not, which is why the lords of the Vale reject Jaime once war breaks out. Regardless, there is no excuse for giving one family two wardenships. As Ned points out, it destabilizes power in the kingdoms.

[LovinRC]

A righteous man wouldn't kill his brother for power. He did it because Renly was a traitor to the realm.

I do not think Stannis thinks he is rightous, I think that knowing Robert's children by Cersi are bastards, being the next "brother" makes him the rightful king. He is socially inept, but a good stratigen. Renly is popular, but not a serious leader in war. Popular with the people, but not a planner. Stannis' wife, Mel, and all R'Hollr followers puff up his importance, but I believe he thinks he is the rightful king.

That being said, poor as it was, his belief that he should sit the throne pushes him along. The only thing that worries me about him is that no matter what he does, he thinks it is right. Davos is his conscience, Mel is his temptation and wife and daughter are his obligation. Who will win to make Stannis do the right thing in the end.

[Gargarax]

Stannis didn't burn weirwoods plural. He only burned the one at SE and had the wildlings burn pieces of weirwood to signify their allegiance to the Red God, and thus him personally. Conversion to the Red God's religion was part of Stannis' price for letting them in. The wildlings needed fast track integration into Westeros, and this way, they are not just bending the knee to a king, but worshipping a messiah. I personally would have let them keep their gods to make the assimilation less humiliating. However, one could argue that the wildings need to be humiliated and completely demoralized before they give up thousands of years of ingrained hostility towards kneelers, so that they don't start raiding and kidnapping people once inside Westeros. If the CotF created the blizzard, then they are rather clumsy, considering that it affected not only Stannis and his Queen's Men, but also King's Men, Freys, and Northmen, who either also follow the Old Gods, or are indifferent to them. As far as the NW castles are concerned, Jon actually forbids Stannis from seizing any save for the Nightfort, and Stannis reluctantly complies.

Good point about the CotF and the Blizzard. Of course, the marriage between Ramsay and Jeyne was mocking the gods as well and we know at least Bran was watching, but the blizzard started before, so you're right about that one.

I thought Mel burns more weirwoods in the North, can't give you a quote though, but will reread. I don't agree that the conversion is a handy way to subdue wildlings, and clearly they are not worshiping a messiah - it is obvious to Jon that most of the wildlings just pretend to follow their new god. I don't think the humiliation is what kept them from raiding and kidnapping. I guess my problem with the conversion as well as the weirwood burning was that Stannis presumes he can change all traditions in the north (which includes seizing NW property, remember he only doesn't get the other fords because Jon has them staffed) "just" because he came to aid (which was his duty as the rightful king). In a way, he tries to change thousands of years of traditions (freedom of religion, autonomy of NW), but at the same time he always talks about what the world owes him and how everything changes that shouldn't. That is why he is a hypocrite in my eyes. If he isn't, because he firmly believes to be the Messiah and the red god the only true god, then he's a religious fanatic, which is a thousand times worse.

However, I actually like Stannis most during his time at the NW and he does show some of his quality there - letting the wildlings settle south of the wall was one of his best moves. In this, I admit, changing traditions was actually desperatly needed. If he crushes the Boltons and Freys, I'll cheer for him. Won't happen though :(

By the way, thanks for answering our criticism so calmly ;-) After the comments of other Stannis fans who put a shotgun in your face the moment you doubt his awesomeness, I love to read arguments like yours ;)