(Heavy Book Spoilers) Possible Character Merge

[digupthebones]

Looking ahead to AFFC/ADWD material, it seems very likely that D&D will be condensing and straight-out eliminating some characters and storylines.

Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, Davos, and Sam are all due for their own arcs separated from that of any other pre-established character (with brief exceptions--Arya and Sam, Tyrion and Jorah). Meanwhile, Dorne and the Iron Islands get their extended internal struggles with a bevy of brand-new characters.

Overall, D&D have been solid surgeons of GRRM's sprawling corpus, cutting when they need to for the sake of Unsullied and the show's tightness and emotional legibility in general. Where will their next cut fall?

One possibility: Quentyn Martell = Jon Connington.

IMO (and not just mine), the Quentyn arc was the weakest in ADWD. His primary traits were petulance and self-righteousness, an unappealing combination. GRRM attempted a pathos injection by a) killing off a companion or two well before they were established enough to be tragic in their fall, and emphasizing Quentyn's ugliness at every turn, almost as often as Tyrion "waddles." He worked best as a structuring absence: an invisible thorn in his sister Arianne's side as she followed her own, more compelling ambitions. On his own terms, all he accomplished was adding a redundant crossing-of-Essos storyline on top of that of Tyrion/Aegon/Connington, stumbling awkwardly into the unfolding chaos in Meereen (GRRM's clumsiest integration), and then dying horribly. Woo. Thematically, he adds nothing but fragments of pride, ambition, weakness, and despair that resonate far more strongly in the other arcs in his orbit (Daenerys, Arianne, etc.) What's more, while GRRM mostly kept Doran's children in separate books (Arianne in AFFC, Quentyn in ADWD), the show will almost certainly be collapsing those simultaneous narratives into one season (namely, 5), forcing them to establish Quentyn's identity and purpose when Arianne's storyline profits from that being kept secret from the audience. So screw the Quentyn Arc--it should, and probably will, be first on D&D's chopping block for the many-tentacled beast that will be Season 5.

What about Jon Connington? He's a one-note character (replace Griff with Gruff), but plays off Tyrion well, and the greyscale lends him some genuine feeling. Still, the Aegon revelation is already going to be a lot for Unsullied to swallow, in terms of both legibility and plausibility. Explaining Connington's backstory without laying any groundwork (as they almost certainly will do for Aegon, via his uncle Oberyn's revenge mission) will just sap that moment of its emotional impact. It's representative of an overall adaptation problem plaguing the series: so many of the characters are stuck in the past, reliving the glories and the horrors of Robert's Rebellion (and its causes, and its effects), so much so that they prove unable to cope with the present (e.g., Robert himself), or are driven to recreate the past in the present (e.g., Littlefinger looking at Sansa and seeing Young Cat). This corrosive nostalgia is one of the emotional lodestones of the books, but has proved difficult to translate onscreen. Preserving Connington will only add to this dilemma.

So, to sum up: Quentyn is lame, character and arc alike, but has a structuring-absence role to play in the Dorne storyline, while Connington is an enjoyable character but will only muddy the waters of an already bloated storyline.

How to solve?

I'd say get rid of Quentyn's book arc, and slot him into Jon Connington's role. Quentyn, then, would be Aegon's gruff, overbearing protector. He's related to Aegon (they're cousins), eliding the need to belabor their connection. He'd represent a direct connection between Season 4 Tyrion, meeting and being defended by Oberyn, and Season 5 Tyrion, sailing east with Oberyn's nephews. This would cement the Martells' role in the overarching storyline, allow for a tragic scene or two when Tyrion confesses to his new companions how their uncle died (and for whom), and reduce the aforementioned burden of Robert's Rebellion backstory. This Quentyn's identity, like Aegon's, would be kept secret at first, allowing D&D to establish Arianne's motivation to unseat Quentyn without spoiling Doran's master plan. Oberyn could set all this up by dropping a hint about his exiled nephew (perhaps under the cover of having supported Viserys?) in Season 4.

Thoughts?

[Professional Dragonslayer]

One possibility: Quentyn Martell = Jon Connington.

IMO (and not just mine), the Quentyn arc was the weakest in ADWD. His primary traits were petulance and self-righteousness, an unappealing combination. GRRM attempted a pathos injection by a) killing off a companion or two well before they were established enough to be tragic in their fall, and emphasizing Quentyn's ugliness at every turn, almost as often as Tyrion "waddles." He worked best as a structuring absence: an invisible thorn in his sister Arianne's side as she followed her own, more compelling ambitions. On his own terms, all he accomplished was adding a redundant crossing-of-Essos storyline on top of that of Tyrion/Aegon/Connington, stumbling awkwardly into the unfolding chaos in Meereen (GRRM's clumsiest integration), and then dying horribly. Woo. Thematically, he adds nothing but fragments of pride, ambition, weakness, and despair that resonate far more strongly in the other arcs in his orbit (Daenerys, Arianne, etc.) What's more, while GRRM mostly kept Doran's children in separate books (Arianne in AFFC, Quentyn in ADWD), the show will almost certainly be collapsing those simultaneous narratives into one season (namely, 5), forcing them to establish Quentyn's identity and purpose when Arianne's storyline profits from that being kept secret from the audience. So screw the Quentyn Arc--it should, and probably will, be first on D&D's chopping block for the many-tentacled beast that will be Season 5.

What about Jon Connington? He's a one-note character (replace Griff with Gruff), but plays off Tyrion well, and the greyscale lends him some genuine feeling. Still, the Aegon revelation is already going to be a lot for Unsullied to swallow, in terms of both legibility and plausibility. Explaining Connington's backstory without laying any groundwork (as they almost certainly will do for Aegon, via his uncle Oberyn's revenge mission) will just sap that moment of its emotional impact. It's representative of an overall adaptation problem plaguing the series: so many of the characters are stuck in the past, reliving the glories and the horrors of Robert's Rebellion (and its causes, and its effects), so much so that they prove unable to cope with the present (e.g., Robert himself), or are driven to recreate the past in the present (e.g., Littlefinger looking at Sansa and seeing Young Cat). This corrosive nostalgia is one of the emotional lodestones of the books, but has proved difficult to translate onscreen. Preserving Connington will only add to this dilemma.

So, to sum up: Quentyn is lame, character and arc alike, but has a structuring-absence role to play in the Dorne storyline, while Connington is an enjoyable character but will only muddy the waters of an already bloated storyline.

How to solve?

I'd say get rid of Quentyn's book arc, and slot him into Jon Connington's role. Quentyn, then, would be Aegon's gruff, overbearing protector. He's related to Aegon (they're cousins), eliding the need to belabor their connection. He'd represent a direct connection between Season 4 Tyrion, meeting and being defended by Oberyn, and Season 5 Tyrion, sailing east with Oberyn's nephews. This would cement the Martells' role in the overarching storyline, allow for a tragic scene or two when Tyrion confesses to his new companions how their uncle died (and for whom), and reduce the aforementioned burden of Robert's Rebellion backstory. This Quentyn's identity, like Aegon's, would be kept secret at first, allowing D&D to establish Arianne's motivation to unseat Quentyn without spoiling Doran's master plan. Oberyn could set all this up by dropping a hint about his exiled nephew (perhaps under the cover of having supported Viserys?) in Season 4.

Thoughts?

Please excuse my poor English:

I simply cannot believe that they will cut any of the new POV from AFFC and ADWD. They could possibly cut Arys Oakheart, but he will provide a few sex scenes and it's HBO... Most likely, they will shorten the story arcs (first look on Quentyn when he is already in Meereen; Jamie will only besiege Riverrun without a stop at Harrenhall or other places; there is quite a lot Brienne chapters with nothing but traveling) and cut a few minor characters (Septon Merribald, a lot of the court in Meeren,...)

[Pinkie Baelish]

Quentyn is a plot device whose purpose is to sow the seeds of unrest between Dany and the Martells. He is more necessary than Jon, but his travelogue chapters need not be included and will probably be cut. Connington is more likely to be cut because like Davos, he primarily exists for us to get a closer look at Aegon

[go joff go]

Why are you guys using spoiler quotes? Anyway one idea I had is that Varys can replace Connington (who I agree to this point in the book is really expendable). I seem to remember varys basically disappearing from the books until the epilogue so why not just have him travel with tyrion especially since he aleady knows/engineered the young griff plotline, and he can be the one to bring griff to westeros andget back in time to start doing the epilogue stuff.. He could even be the one to catch greyscale. As for Quentyn. Not really sure there is anything they can do about that

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

You guys don't need to spoiler tag a spoiler tagged thread. You can speak freely!

But my general thoughts are that they don't need to completely cut storylines so much as they need to seriously alter how they're delivered. See the Greyjoy plot...When we don't get the somewhat exhausting PoV of Aeron it's actually an interesting encounter that can resolve relatively quickly. Brienne in the Riverlands takes an entire book of us knowing nothing will become of it and then at the end we get a bit of action that's interesting. That's easily condensed without boring the audience. Quentyn need not be an actual PoV, we can get maybe one or two scenes with him and his cronies (and not with Dany) before seeing him get torched.

Basically the producers need to do what George's editor couldn't do - make AFFC and ADWD concise and deliberate.

[Queen of Whores]

I'm thinking they can just trim the storylines so that all the big, exciting moments are left in, but the boring travelogues are mostly out. Here's a big of an outline.

Quentyn:

- Appears in Meereen, gets rejected by Dany.

- Plans to steal dragons.

- Fails.

JonCon/(F)Aegon:

- Tyrion meets them.

- Tyrion figures out who he is.

- Ambush by greyscale infected.

- Tyrion gets kidnapped at brothel.

- Negotiations with Golden Company.

- Besieging Storm's End (cut Griffin's Roost)

Iron Islands:

- Asha gets word of Balon's death (assuming she doesn't continue her ridiculous plan).

- Asha arrives back at Iron Islands.

- Asha meets Vic, Aeron and Euron.

- Victarian rejects her offer of help.

- Kingsmoot.

- Asha says 'fuck it' and goes back to the North.

- Vic seizes the Shield Isles.

- Euron sends Vic to get Dany.

Brienne:

- Brienne and Pod set out for KL together.

- On the road they meet Locke; Brienne kills him.

- They visit the Quiet Isle.

- Get ambushed at Inn of the Crossroads.

- Saved and captured by BwB.

- Talks with Thoros.

- Tried and hanged by Stoneheart.

Dorne:

- Arianne sleeps with Arys and convinces him of her plan.

- The failed coup.

- Doran reveals his plan to Arianne.

So while just about all the important stuff is still there, a lot of the 'fat' so to speak, is gone, leaving a more streamlined and fast-paced story, with no important characters cut.

[Blutrabe]

@RhymesWithFreak:

That is exactly what I would do if I was a writer on the show.

[Pinkie Baelish]

<snip>

Good stuff, the only exception I would make is having Locke be the one who ambushes Brienne at the Inn of the Crossroads. Rorge is confirmed for next season, so he'll probably be one of the men Arya and Sandor kill at the Inn at the Crossroads. I think Locke is going to be somewhere up north or at the Wall next season, based on insider reports.

[oprahnoodlemantra]

Tyrion and Jorah's encounter is far from brief.

Also, I don't think they'll merge Quentyn and Jon Connington. However, I do think that they'll shorten Quentyn's journey. I could see them cutting out all of his chapters that take place before meeting Daenerys. He'll arrive, get turned down, and release the dragons only to get burned to death.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Tyrion and Jorah's encounter is far from brief.

Also, I don't think they'll merge Quentyn and Jon Connington. However, I do think that they'll shorten Quentyn's journey. I could see them cutting out all of his chapters that take place before meeting Daenerys. He'll arrive, get turned down, and release the dragons only to get burned to death.

It's far from brief in the books, but on the show we don't need to go through episodes of Tyrion and Penny, Jorah being repeatedly beaten, slave auctions and all the other crap.

As far as Quentyn goes, I think they only need 1 scene before meeting Dany, a scene or two with Dany, and then the defining moment ending that arc. Not much time at all really.

[Longspear Ryk]

Quentyn will be a huge character... his arc will work wonders on tv

[Ser Tahu]

Quentyn will be a huge character... his arc will work wonders on tv

:agree:

I personally really enjoyed his arc in the books (and I thought he was one of the most relatable characters, if not the most relatable character, in the the entire series). As for the show, I think they will actually show more of him to build him as a character, and have his arc start in Dorne with Doran giving him his mission (I also think they will keep his mission secret so the viewers side with Arianne and believe he is trying to usurp her, making his arrival in Meereen a big reveal).

Either way, it would be a great crime to combine them.

[Lannister Hamster]

In a word. No. In a sentence. I disagree.

I don't really understand the hate for Quentyn. He failed in his mission, but that doesn't make him useless or superfluous. He just failed. I agree with the poster before who said that Quentyn's story just needs to be shortened to start from when he arrives in Mereen.

I can't see how you can combine Quentyn who is attached to Dany and Jon Conn who is attached to Aegon. You also need Jon Conn for narrative purposes, to talk with Aegon and Tyrion about their plans for the audience's benefit more than anything else.

They can't possibly be combined.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

In a word. No. In a sentence. I disagree.

I don't really understand the hate for Quentyn. He failed in his mission, but that doesn't make him useless or superfluous. He just failed. I agree with the poster before who said that Quentyn's story just needs to be shortened to start from when he arrives in Mereen.

I can't see how you can combine Quentyn who is attached to Dany and Jon Conn who is attached to Aegon. You also need Jon Conn for narrative purposes, to talk with Aegon and Tyrion about their plans for the audience's benefit more than anything else.

They can't possibly be combined.

Quentyn's is nothing if not useless. Other than freeing the dragons who could've just freed themselves there's no point to wedge in a pointless subplot in a book that's essentially a large collection of subplots. Dorne will already not side with Dany. Moreover the story sucks because you knew the minute he appeared that Quentyn would be unsuccessful, you just underestimated his stupidity.

On TV it could work better since you can effectively cut the fat and you get a nice CG scene to show off.

[Colonel Green]

Iron Islands:

- Asha gets word of Balon's death (assuming she doesn't continue her ridiculous plan).

There's no chance they're going to have her turn around, after building up her going to the Dreadfort like that.

[Professional Dragonslayer]

There's no chance they're going to have her turn around, after building up her going to the Dreadfort like that.

I would say that there is no chance they cancel the kingsmoot. According to that, I suspect she has to turn back to the Iron Islands after she receives a message about Balon's death. What Yara/Asha is going to do before that only D&D know...

[Colonel Green]

I would say that there is no chance thay cancel the kingsmoot.

I'd say there's a pretty good chance of that.

[DavosSeaworthy]

I'm thinking they can just trim the storylines so that all the big, exciting moments are left in, but the boring travelogues are mostly out. Here's a big of an outline.

Quentyn:

- Appears in Meereen, gets rejected by Dany.

- Plans to steal dragons.

- Fails.

JonCon/(F)Aegon:

- Tyrion meets them.

- Tyrion figures out who he is.

- Ambush by greyscale infected.

- Tyrion gets kidnapped at brothel.

- Negotiations with Golden Company.

- Besieging Storm's End (cut Griffin's Roost)

Iron Islands:

- Asha gets word of Balon's death (assuming she doesn't continue her ridiculous plan).

- Asha arrives back at Iron Islands.

- Asha meets Vic, Aeron and Euron.

- Victarian rejects her offer of help.

- Kingsmoot.

- Asha says 'fuck it' and goes back to the North.

- Vic seizes the Shield Isles.

- Euron sends Vic to get Dany.

Brienne:

- Brienne and Pod set out for KL together.

- On the road they meet Locke; Brienne kills him.

- They visit the Quiet Isle.

- Get ambushed at Inn of the Crossroads.

- Saved and captured by BwB.

- Talks with Thoros.

- Tried and hanged by Stoneheart.

Dorne:

- Arianne sleeps with Arys and convinces him of her plan.

- The failed coup.

- Doran reveals his plan to Arianne.

So while just about all the important stuff is still there, a lot of the 'fat' so to speak, is gone, leaving a more streamlined and fast-paced story, with no important characters cut.

The thing with Feast and Dance is they are really set up books for Winds, and you are correct, there is a lot of 'fat' in these books that is set up to give the reader a better idea of the devestation of the conflicts that have transpired in these book, but the show doesn't need to have as much detail, they can provide detail much quicker than a book, so I think your predictions, if we want to call them that, are probably going to be very close to what actually occurs.

[Ser Tahu]

There's no chance they're going to have her turn around, after building up her going to the Dreadfort like that.

I would say that there is no chance thay cancel the kingsmoot. According to that, I suspect she has to turn back to the Iron Islands after she receives a message about Balon's death. What Yara/Asha is going to do before that only D&D know...

The idea of YarAsha getting word of Balon's death and turning around is absolutely nonsensical. She is on a boat. Ravens don't go to boats, so she has no way of finding out before arriving at the Dreadfort. And why would YarAsha going through with her plan mean there is no kingsmoot? I think I am missing part of the logic here.

[grand old duke of stark]

'DarkAndFullOfTurnips' wrote:

Quentyn's is nothing if not useless. Other than freeing the dragons who could've just freed themselves there's no point to wedge in a pointless subplot in a book that's essentially a large collection of subplots. Dorne will already not side with Dany. Moreover the story sucks because you knew the minute he appeared that Quentyn would be unsuccessful, you just underestimated his stupidity.

On TV it could work better since you can effectively cut the fat and you get a nice CG scene to show off.

=================================================================================

Agreed. I've always thought Qwentyn was expendable. If D&D are looking to cut characters, he's a major candidate. Viewers may get teens roaming Essos fatigue. Moreover, unlike fAegon, he's not very admirable or likeable. Even in the books he is a footnote to 1) show Doran's canny planning and 2) release the dragons. Both of those can be established other ways. And Doran won't need Quentyn revenge to back fAegon over Dany.

About Asha/Yara--Season 3 set up her immediate future action and determination. It is unlikely she'll do otherwise. And while the Kingsmoot is interesting in the books, I think it can take place off-screen in the TV show. That would save casting lots of later unseen actors. We can meet Euron and Victarion other ways.