Jorahs peach: symbolism and foreshadowing?

[total1402]

I just wanted to talk about the scene in Clash of Kings from a re-read where Jorah gives Dany the peach in the city of bones. Now, this is described as "small" and "over-ripe": however when Dany tastes it its so sweet it "almost makes her cry". Anyway I think there is actually a lot of symbolism and maybe a bit of foreshadowing.

The other time a peach comes up in Clash of Kings is the prominent scene between Renly and Stannis. He takes it out and bites it in front of Stannis. He says this represents the riches, wealth and power of the Reach. So there is a clear correlation between land/power and the fruit. Given that in the scene with Dany they talk about Bear Island as a poor impoverished place and why lynesse left him over money its safe to assume that the small peach is referring to Jorahs social position in the same way as Renlys. Obviously relative to Daenerys who is Queen he is far below her in station and this is a topic which comes up as he discusses his wife Lynesse. In addition, the word "over-ripe", suggests something left for too long and this could refer to Jorah being older than Daenerys. If we then take the peach to be Jorah himself then the fact that Dany is thinking initially of appearances could be referring to her thinking that she can't imagine enjoying having sex with Jorah at all. Indeed in that chapter she does exactly this in pretty blunt terms! :D So I think that it suggests that Dany would actually enjoy having sex with Jorah and she is letting appearances and issues of status get in the way. Just as she did with thinking she wouldn't enjoy eating the small over-ripe peach which is actually so sweet it makes her cry. So the peach is a metaphor for Jorah himself and meant to say that she is actually mistaken in her assumption she wouldn't enjoy it.

Do you think there is a bit of symbolism going on here?

As for foreshadowing this either means they will get together for a time at some point, or, Dany will decide later she wants to be with Jorah and be all sad/regretful when he dies.

ps. Also another little tidbit is that Dany does eat peaches whilst Stannis does not. This could subtly be saying that Dany is more accommodating and reasonable than Stannis. It could also hint at a possible future conflict between Dany and Jorah (or possibly his current exile). Dany has referred to Jorah as being like a brother to her and so this could hint at a time when there will be a crucial need to reconcile; like between Renly and Stannis.

[Fire Eater]

Ser Jorah told her of the tree it [peach] had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

The wall in the West that comes to mind is the Wall, and with peaches being somewhat used akin to oranges in The Godfather, this could foreshadow Dany dying at the Wall.

[Snow-Rivers-Storm]

I think it more likely the peach represents Slaver's Bay. Small and overripe compared to Westeros, but whose conquest is so sweet to Daenerys. Although the west wall part is intriguing.

[Fire Eater]

I think it more likely the peach represents Slaver's Bay. Small and overripe compared to Westeros, but whose conquest is so sweet to Daenerys. Although the west wall part is intriguing.

Sweetness has a negative connotation in ASOIAF, and there is nothing in the text that relates Slvaer's Bay to a peach.

[Hutch]

TWoW really needs to come out soon.

[Slackylc]

There's a brilliant food code thread which shows that peaches often seem to be a symbol of naivety, for example when Renly bites the peach it's reflecting the fact that he didn't know what he was getting himself into, and that he didn't understand the powers threatening him (Mel) because he, and his supporters, were knights of the summer.

Maybe the part with Dany that you mention actually symbolises Dany being naive and too trusting by not realising that Jorah had betrayed her, and was continuing to do so, the overripe bit meaning that she was well overdue in realising this?

ETA: The Food Code

[Newstar]

Ser Jorah told her of the tree it [peach] had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

The wall in the West that comes to mind is the Wall, and with peaches being somewhat used akin to oranges in The Godfather, this could foreshadow Dany dying at the Wall.

I agree.

[Dr. Pepper]

Lol, no this isn't foreshadowing Dany and Jorah getting down to the dirty dirty.

When we were researching for the Food Code thread, several of us found that there is little evidence to support the theory that peaches symbolized only death. Our suggestion was that the peach's code is not one of death, but of confidence, "summer" qualities, innocence, naivete and comfort. But those things do eventually end, sooner or later, like summer. Because death might be part of said downfall, the peach can somewhat be interpreted in that context.

Elsewhere, sweetness has been pointed out by butterbumps and danm_999 as having a negative connotation, especially in Dany's chapters.

In light of this, the symbolism of this scene starts to make a lot more sense and makes the idea of Dany suddenly falling in love with Jorah - who she isn't attracted to, who betrayed her, and who took liberties on her person - completely laughable. Dany is in a "summer" phase at this time and she embraces it completely. She's naive and confident, feeling comfortable and excited about her situation. There are bumps along the way, but this "summer"- which has several downer periods (like in Qarth)- carries on through Meereen where things aren't so peachy anymore.

[tze]

Ser Jorah told her of the tree it [peach] had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

The wall in the West that comes to mind is the Wall, and with peaches being somewhat used akin to oranges in The Godfather, this could foreshadow Dany dying at the Wall.

If this has Westerosi connotations, then I'd say a garden near the western border (of Westeros) brings to mind Highgarden, not the Wall. Especially given that the Wall is in the north, not the west, and the other symbolically relevant peach in ACOK, Renly's peach, is explicitly described as being "from Highgarden". (And as fruit trees tend to be found specifically in orchards, I find GRRM's choice to specify a "garden" here instead of an orchard to be relevant in a literary sense.) Dany eats the peach from the garden in the west, as does Renly, and Renly's peach symbolized (among other things) his marriage alliance with Highgarden. Stannis, in contrast to both, ignores the peach. Given that House Tyrell ended up refusing to join Stannis as it joined Renly, the peach incident could foreshadow Dany allying with House Tyrell (via marriage?), a la Renly, where Stannis did not (she accepts and eats the peach, symbolically echoing Renly but not Stannis in the context of House Tyrell).

Moreover, she's explicitly wearing a lionskin while choosing to eat a peach from a garden near the western border. Later in ACOK, lion-associated House Lannister will choose to make a marriage alliance with Highgarden. These elements could serve to symbolically associate Dany with the Tyrell/Lannister alliance---and as she's the one in the lionskin, this could hint that, like the other "lions", she'll also end up entering into a toxic political (marriage?) alliance with someone from Highgarden in the Reach in the future (which would also jive with the Jorah/Lynesse story placement, as it was marriage to someone from a powerful Reach family that put Jorah on the path to losing everything).

Overripe fruit, as we saw with Doran Martell, symbolizes overripe plots. The overripe peach is given to Dany by Jorah, the same person who will later end up convincing Dany to head to Astapor, which sets a chain of events in motion that causes the opportunity to take Westeros to almost certainly slip away. So Dany's acceptance of the overripe peach from Jorah can be read as foreshadowing Dany's later decision to accept something else from Jorah (his advice to go to Astapor) that will end up causing her Westerosi plots to become overripe. (And what does Kraznys smell like when Dany asks to buy all of the Unsullied in Astapor? Peaches.)

Furthermore, this overripe peach is too small to be really useful. (Interestingly, just like the green-and-gold slippers Dany will be given in ADWD.) The Golden Company believes that the power of Highgarden is not as strong as Mace Tyrell thinks, because the GC presumably believes it can convince powerful Reachlords to abandon Highgarden and side with Aegon. It's very possible that Highgarden's power will be much diminished by the time Dany finally lands in Westeros, and would not represent as powerful an ally as before; hence the extreme smallness of this peach Dany is given from the garden in the west.

[E-Ro]

Wait where does it say stannis doesn't eat peaches? He only refuses the peach offered to him by renly because renly is a jackass.

Brilliant post above me, btw. Props.

[total1402]

It could be referring to a tragic end I suppose if peaches and sweetness has negative connotations; with the tears being ones of sadness.

ps. Doesn't that mean the sweet blue rose growing out of the wall has negative connotations as well?

I just find it odd that Jorah is still alive at this point. If he is only meant to be the loser who is desperately/clumsily trying to get with Dany surely he would be treated more like the guy in Ashas POV. In passing, as a joke, a bit like how Sansa (rightly) snaps down at all the ugly men she doesn't want who try to hit on her. Yet the fact he does love her is prominent in Danys first and last chapter of ASOS and comes up in her final ADWD chapter as well. If Martin just wanted the sympathy killing then wouldn't it have made more sense to kill Jorah off in ASOS rather than leave it open he could come back? He wasn't actually necessary for Tyrion to get to slavers bay at all. Plus why make Dany go through one tragic thing with Jorahs exile only to then have his death two books later next time she sees him? Especially since it doesn't suit where I think Danys storyline is going for her to be mournful/regretful of anything if she is going to become a ruthless khaleesi and embrace fire and blood.

I am quite surprised just how dismissive people are over Jorah in general TBH. In the westeros.org review of season 3 with Ellio I was surprised they didn't acknowledge the changes made to Danys story in this regard considering their reviews normally acknowledge the series as an adaptation and the differences; like Mance Rayder n Tormond being different. They interact a ton in ASOS and he has a big role in most of her chapters; yet in the series they don't interact at all after episode 1? I mean if you are going to spend ten minutes talking about Bronn and not mention the changes to Jorahs role is a little bizarre. They didn't mention him in their season 2 review either at that.

Wow, somebody else actually thinks Jorah and Lynesse are going to get back together again. :D Given how much Dany has talked about tournies and Rhaegar I actually think there might be a brief one and Jorah crowns Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty again; to the surprise of everyone.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

If this has Westerosi connotations, then I'd say a garden near the western border (of Westeros) brings to mind Highgarden, not the Wall. Especially given that the Wall is in the north, not the west, and the other symbolically relevant peach in ACOK, Renly's peach, is explicitly described as being "from Highgarden". (And as fruit trees tend to be found specifically in orchards, I find GRRM's choice to specify a "garden" here instead of an orchard to be relevant in a literary sense.) Dany eats the peach from the garden in the west, as does Renly, and Renly's peach symbolized (among other things) his marriage alliance with Highgarden. Stannis, in contrast to both, ignores the peach. Given that House Tyrell ended up refusing to join Stannis as it joined Renly, the peach incident could foreshadow Dany allying with House Tyrell (via marriage?), a la Renly, where Stannis did not (she accepts and eats the peach, symbolically echoing Renly but not Stannis in the context of House Tyrell).

Moreover, she's explicitly wearing a lionskin while choosing to eat a peach from a garden near the western border. Later in ACOK, lion-associated House Lannister will choose to make a marriage alliance with Highgarden. These elements could serve to symbolically associate Dany with the Tyrell/Lannister alliance---and as she's the one in the lionskin, this could hint that, like the other "lions", she'll also end up entering into a toxic political (marriage?) alliance with someone from Highgarden in the Reach in the future (which would also jive with the Jorah/Lynesse story placement, as it was marriage to someone from a powerful Reach family that put Jorah on the path to losing everything).

Overripe fruit, as we saw with Doran Martell, symbolizes overripe plots. The overripe peach is given to Dany by Jorah, the same person who will later end up convincing Dany to head to Astapor, which sets a chain of events in motion that causes the opportunity to take Westeros to almost certainly slip away. So Dany's acceptance of the overripe peach from Jorah can be read as foreshadowing Dany's later decision to accept something else from Jorah (his advice to go to Astapor) that will end up causing her Westerosi plots to become overripe. (And what does Kraznys smell like when Dany asks to buy all of the Unsullied in Astapor? Peaches.)

Furthermore, this overripe peach is too small to be really useful. (Interestingly, just like the green-and-gold slippers Dany will be given in ADWD.) The Golden Company believes that the power of Highgarden is not as strong as Mace Tyrell thinks, because the GC presumably believes it can convince powerful Reachlords to abandon Highgarden and side with Aegon. It's very possible that Highgarden's power will be much diminished by the time Dany finally lands in Westeros, and would not represent as powerful an ally as before; hence the extreme smallness of this peach Dany is given from the garden in the west.

Amazing breakdown

[The Crow]

It means she's going to offer one to Stannis and then be killed by a shadow baby that night.

[total1402]

If this has Westerosi connotations, then I'd say a garden near the western border (of Westeros) brings to mind Highgarden, not the Wall. Especially given that the Wall is in the north, not the west, and the other symbolically relevant peach in ACOK, Renly's peach, is explicitly described as being "from Highgarden". (And as fruit trees tend to be found specifically in orchards, I find GRRM's choice to specify a "garden" here instead of an orchard to be relevant in a literary sense.) Dany eats the peach from the garden in the west, as does Renly, and Renly's peach symbolized (among other things) his marriage alliance with Highgarden. Stannis, in contrast to both, ignores the peach. Given that House Tyrell ended up refusing to join Stannis as it joined Renly, the peach incident could foreshadow Dany allying with House Tyrell (via marriage?), a la Renly, where Stannis did not (she accepts and eats the peach, symbolically echoing Renly but not Stannis in the context of House Tyrell).

Moreover, she's explicitly wearing a lionskin while choosing to eat a peach from a garden near the western border. Later in ACOK, lion-associated House Lannister will choose to make a marriage alliance with Highgarden. These elements could serve to symbolically associate Dany with the Tyrell/Lannister alliance---and as she's the one in the lionskin, this could hint that, like the other "lions", she'll also end up entering into a toxic political (marriage?) alliance with someone from Highgarden in the Reach in the future (which would also jive with the Jorah/Lynesse story placement, as it was marriage to someone from a powerful Reach family that put Jorah on the path to losing everything).

Overripe fruit, as we saw with Doran Martell, symbolizes overripe plots. The overripe peach is given to Dany by Jorah, the same person who will later end up convincing Dany to head to Astapor, which sets a chain of events in motion that causes the opportunity to take Westeros to almost certainly slip away. So Dany's acceptance of the overripe peach from Jorah can be read as foreshadowing Dany's later decision to accept something else from Jorah (his advice to go to Astapor) that will end up causing her Westerosi plots to become overripe. (And what does Kraznys smell like when Dany asks to buy all of the Unsullied in Astapor? Peaches.)

Furthermore, this overripe peach is too small to be really useful. (Interestingly, just like the green-and-gold slippers Dany will be given in ADWD.) The Golden Company believes that the power of Highgarden is not as strong as Mace Tyrell thinks, because the GC presumably believes it can convince powerful Reachlords to abandon Highgarden and side with Aegon. It's very possible that Highgarden's power will be much diminished by the time Dany finally lands in Westeros, and would not represent as powerful an ally as before; hence the extreme smallness of this peach Dany is given from the garden in the west.

Agree with the peach and lionskin foreshadowing as well as the depleted power of highgarden by it being a smaller peach.

I don't agree with the over-ripe plans reference. That seems more to be drawing on dislike of ADWD slow plot or assumptions that Dany has left it too late to invade Westeros. We don't know that yet until WoW is released and we see how Aegons invasion plays out.

Its more likely to also be something about Highgarden and the Reach. Possibly indicating their rotton associations with the Lannister/Baratheon regime and having been away from the Targaryen camp for so long.

[total1402]

It means she's going to offer one to Stannis and then be killed by a shadow baby that night.

Which would be terrible writing....

[bemused]

Tried to post this earlier, but it didn't take..

So many of these thoughts fit so many ways.. but I've recently been musing along other lines that may also fit in. Could this scene also hold some foreshadowing for Jorah apart from his aparently doomed desire for Dany ? I stumbled across some things that led me to suspect that Satin may possibly be the son of Jorah and Lynesse.. That must sound off the wall at first , but here's the thread with clues from text : ( or I could cross post if anyone would rather )

http://asoiaf.wester...d-from-oldtown/

I think there are at least as many hints to tie Satin to the Hightowers and Jorah and Lynesse , as have spawned a good many theories..

The Wall is to the west of where they are. Jorah finds the peach. Will he ever get to hear of Jeor's dying wish that he take the black ? If he does end up at the wall , will he discover the fruit of his love for Lynesse ? At 18 ( if that's Satin's true age) , the fruit would be a tad over ripe. For Jorah too , sweet to discover, but enough to make one cry , when one thinks of all that's been missed.

Jorah gives the peach to Dany , who reminds him so strongly of Lynesse . Did he unknowingly give this peach to Lynesse ?.. When he found out he had been supplanted by Tregar, he had been away for some time as a sellsword.

[Light a wight tonight]

It's obviously a foreshadowing of Jorah bringing Tyrion. Small, check. From the west: Casterly Rock is in the Westerlands. So sweet it makes you cry? Two out of three ain't bad.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Tried to post this earlier, but it didn't take..

So many of these thoughts fit so many ways.. but I've recently been musing along other lines that may also fit in. Could this scene also hold some foreshadowing for Jorah apart from his aparently doomed desire for Dany ? I stumbled across some things that led me to suspect that Satin may possibly be the son of Jorah and Lynesse.. That must sound off the wall at first , but here's the thread with clues from text : ( or I could cross post if anyone would rather )

http://asoiaf.wester...d-from-oldtown/

I think there are at least as many hints to tie Satin to the Hightowers and Jorah and Lynesse , as have spawned a good many theories..

The Wall is to the west of where they are. Jorah finds the peach. Will he ever get to hear of Jeor's dying wish that he take the black ? If he does end up at the wall , will he discover the fruit of his love for Lynesse ? At 18 ( if that's Satin's true age) , the fruit would be a tad over ripe. For Jorah too , sweet to discover, but enough to make one cry , when one thinks of all that's been missed.

Jorah gives the peach to Dany , who reminds him so strongly of Lynesse . Did he unknowingly give this peach to Lynesse ?.. When he found out he had been supplanted by Tregar, he had been away for some time as a sellsword.

Flat out impossible. Unless Jorah impregnated a five-year-old ten years before he met her. I'm not entirely sure about Satin's age, but given his beard he is likely to be a couple years older than Jon - who was born five years before Jorah ever laid eyes on a fourteen years old Lynesse.

[bemused]

ahh.. I wasn't sure of the timeline... however, there's a bit of doubt about his age. He says he's 18, but Jon seems to have some doubts...still that would be off.. so I guess the Baelor Hightower possibility is more likely ( which was my original suspicion )..and , it's OT for this thread. ;)

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

The peach symbolizes Dany's naïvete. She still thinks that if she can just raise a army large enough to conquer, she can rule and live happily ever after. She eats this peach in a dead abandoned city where hardly anything grows. The City of Bones foreshadows the disaster that takes place after she conquers Slaver's Bay. She ends up unintentionally laying waste to it. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Slaver's Bay was mostly wiped out and abandoned in TWOW.