Middle East 14 - You know nothing ...

[Arkhangel]

Ok. So your point is that because Hamas has no other option but to shoot from civilian centers (not entirely true and it absolutely is a deliberate tactic, especially when Israel gives people 3 days to leave a population center they are going to bomb and Hamas forces them to stay), that Israel should just suck it up and accept the rocket fire because of the Iron Dome? Is that your position? Because all you're saying is "evil Israel is killing civilians" and Hamas is doing nothing to perpetuate that situation.

I'm saying it's a question of proportionality. Israel's attack on Gaza is totally disproportionate with the threat that Hamas represents, as is blatantly obvious in the hugely asymmetric death toll. I did not say that Hamas is doing nothing to perpetuate the situation, as I said in my previous post, and I do not think that Israel is evil, as I've already said. I think that this is a terrible situation on both sides, but that to try to paint Israel as the primary victim or the underdog in this conflict is completely at odds with reality. Israel is top dog, and as the party with the least to lose it's the one best able to break out of this destructive cycle.

It's not going to, of course, but that doesn't mean we should be cheerleaders for the violent oppression of an entire people, even if it is done out of fear.

[Shryke]

This is a pretty good primer on the issue:

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5902177/9-questions-about-the-israel-palestine-conflict-you-were-too

And yeah, this is basically a textbook case of disproportionate response.

But then "mowing the lawn" is the current Israeli strategy for dealing with the Palestinians, so it's not surprising or anything.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Taking a step back, what is the solution to the entire Israeli/Palestinian situation?

Best case I can see is basically the creation of an Israeli state on territory currently occupied by Israel, the creation of a Gazan Palestinian state and the creation of a West Bank Palestinian state. These two Palestinian states cannot hope to be one nation, as they arent' geographically connected to one another, nor do they really get along in any case.

Further, no right of return for refugees can seriously be considered, and Jerusalem will have to remain some kind of international enclave/neutral territory that doesn't wholly belong to either side.

This convoluted scenario is probably the closest to a peaceful end state that can be imagined.

Thoughts?

[TheKitttenGuard]

Israel launched a major operation in the W.B that arrested dozen of top members of Hamas and hundreds of Palestinians with basically zero evidence of their involvement in the kidnapping of the three settler boys,. Below are a couple articles that the government knew of their fate early on but used it for maximum political effect and threw in some Racism for good effect,

http://forward.com/articles/201764/how-politics-and-lies-triggered-an-unintended-war/?p=all

http://electronicintifada.net/content/netanyahu-government-knew-teens-were-dead-it-whipped-racist-frenzy/13533

So Israel used a tragedy for its advantage to strike at a Palestinian political arrangement. Considering the militant nature of Hamas how is it illogical to think their may be a response with arms?

This is more of opinion piece but Hamas does offer a 10 year truce. It is based that Israel will lift the blockade of Gaza which been in place since Hamas won the '06 election:

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/deafening-silence-proposal.html

A blockade can be considered as an Act of War.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Are people really attempting to defend Hamas' actions here?

[Shryke]

Are people really attempting to defend Hamas' actions here?

Are people are really attempting to defend Israel's?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Shryke,

I see Israel's attack to eliminate lanuchers, rockets, and tunnels as pragmatic. If this government didn't act to stop the loss of Israeli lives it would likely be replaced by one that did.

Hamas is firing rockets, not to hit Israeli artillery or missile sites, but to hit civilian targets. They are further putting their own population at risk by storing missiles and launchers in shelters. I see Hamas as the bigger problem as a result.

[Shryke]

Shryke,

I see Israel's attack to eliminate lanuchers, rockets, and tunnels as pragmatic. If this government didn't act to stop the loss of Israeli lives it would likely be replaced by one that did.

Hamas is firing rockets, not to hit Israeli artillery or missile sites, but to hit civilian targets. They are further putting their own population at risk by storing missiles and launchers in shelters. I see Hamas as the bigger problem as a result.

Hamas' attack is as pragmatic as Israel's by that very definition. You even claimed this already:

I'm further saying that Hamas benefits politically by sacrificing its own people.

So I'm not sure you are making any coherent point here.

You seem to shifting your definitions from post to post to try and justify a position not actually based on those definitions.

[TheKitttenGuard]

Are people really attempting to defend Hamas' actions here?

More that do Palestinian have the same right of arm self-defense that is preached to be as foundationally important when debates involving arms are concerned.

Hamas has a fine bloody past and it is common throughout. The result in the W.B concerning overall cooperation has not been inspiring. Israel has been much unilateral say in what is to be acceptable. When the emphasis is on safety and secerty requires a full surrender of your own how fair is that position?

[Arkhangel]

Shryke,

I see Israel's attack to eliminate lanuchers, rockets, and tunnels as pragmatic. If this government didn't act to stop the loss of Israeli lives it would likely be replaced by one that did.

Hamas is firing rockets, not to hit Israeli artillery or missile sites, but to hit civilian targets. They are further putting their own population at risk by storing missiles and launchers in shelters. I see Hamas as the bigger problem as a result.

The civilian death toll is currently 718:3. Israel has killed 239 times more civilians than Hamas in this conflict alone. Do you want to rethink that argument about hitting civilian targets?

[Alarich]

Hamas is a gang of thugs, running what is essentially a huge Isreali prison camp. As with all prison camps you need some form of self governance if you don't have the manpower or will to do everything yourself. For this you either need collaborators or even better yet an emeny who can provide a measure of self-organization without really harming you. Hamas does this for Israel. From time to time the IDF steps in just to make sure, everyone knows who is the real master over life and death but otherwise leaves the everyday running to whomever emerges on top. It's really convenient, because the conditions of the prison dictate that thugs and radicals will emerge on top and then you can blame everything that goes on inside on them.

ETA: SSE, are you saying that the people of Israel want this as an answer to the abduction and killing of three boys by a yet unknown party? Tell me how many Israelis have died from Hamas rockets and how many Palestinians from Israeli rockets? Child for child, the IDF vastly is outkilling Hamas.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I'm taking intent into consideration plus Hamas' desire to promote the deaths of Gazan Civilians. Israel, to the best of my knowledge, is not attempting to kill Gazan civilians, and it harms Israel to do so. Hamas desperately wants to kill Israeli civilians an will not negotiate with Israel. Therefore, I hold Hamas more morally culpable for this conflict as they desire civilian deaths.