Death Reasons of King Robb

[Erkan12]

1-) Theon Turncloak / Reek

I can understand his betrayal, he choose his father, but no one said to him capture Winterfell and murder fake princess.
This cause both losing capital of North, heirs of Robb, and causes moral loses ; King Who Lost the North, and no Jeyne's comforting which means no Frey loss.

2-) Edmure's foolish acts

As heir of Hoster Tully he was very incompetent. Even Blackfish and Cat said that. First he lost against Kingslayer and captured. He put Riverlands terrible position. After his release his first act was persuading Robb for sending his riverlords to their own lands which cause another terrible judge. Robb lost his many forces which means he start over after Whispering Wood ; Lannisters still has number advantage. And sending his lords didn't even save their lands, like House Darry they were scattered. After that he made his final suprise, they told just defend Riverrun, and he gather his troops fought against Tywin, while Tywin has twice number he has. And he lost significant number yet he defeat him but no captive like Tywin even not Gregor, he just decrease his number but he decrease himself too. More importantly this destroyed all the plans, Tywin didn't went to Westerlands, instead he achieved great alliance like Tyrells and this end the war.

3-) Rodrik's stupidity

Taking all the men in Winterfell... There is no need any explanation. Defeated by Ramsay is another foolish act but it was treachery so i will not blame him about it.

4-) Catelyn's release the Kingslayer

This was treason, and came from his 'mother' ! This caused Karstarks loss.

5-) Walder's Dotage/Madness

Violation of guest right, which is not wise act for his house. He achieve great hatred and it will remembered for centuries. He won the riverlands but lost many sons... While Robb propose him another wedding and made amends for it.

And i'm not blaming Roose, he is traitor and Kingslayer yet there was so many reasons for betray his king, after all this it came to that... And i hope no one expecting great loyalty from Boltons too...

[Mladen]

4-) Catelyn's release the Kingslayer

This was treason, and came from his 'mother' ! This caused Karstarks loss.

Am I missing something here? Catelyn is Robert's mother.

There is only one person Robb can blame for RW - himself

1. RW had nothing to do with Theon or Rodrick

2. RW plans started before Cat's release of Jaime

3. Walder, as immensely as stupid and cruel as he is, is not senile old man.

[Jrogo]

I think it is all Theon's fault!!!!!

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Well I don't see how you can list reasons but exclude the biggest reason of all. All it comes down to is that he was going to lose and pissed people off. A lot of factors play into it, but had he not broken his vow there would be no reason to murder him in that fashion, as unfair of a reaction as it was.

[jongtu]

I mainly think Robbs death was the result of the bolts and having his throat slit

[Erkan12]

There is only one person Robb can blame for RW - himself

1. RW had nothing to do with Theon or Rodrick

2. RW plans started before Cat's release of Jaime

3. Walder, as immensely as stupid and cruel as he is, is not senile old man.

Yes but i open this topic for blaming others.

1-) Losing North and losing his heirs, is important part in his downfall. Killing Robb would not solve the problem. Because Bran would be the next KitN.

And death of the Princess cause Jeyne's comforting... So it is related.

2-) Am i wrong, or didn't Cat propose 'another wedding' idea ?

asos / 14

“We must win back the Freys,” said Robb. “With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope. I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires ... apologies, honors, lands, gold ... there must be something that would soothe his pride...”

“Not something,” said Catelyn. “Someone.”

3-) Still violation of guest right (and middle of the wedding) was only Walder could do, that was extreme. No one think it is coming.

[grand old duke of stark]

The buck has to stop somewhere If Robb had gone ahead with the Frey marriage he'd probably be the main contender for the IT as of the end of DwD, He didn't and therefore he brought his fate upon himself, his mother, his soldiers, his family, and the North. Such a simple thing--keep your word, especially when it's a solemn vow.

[Lord Puff Fish]

I think it is all Theon's fault!!!!!

Only to a certain extent. He certainly contributed to it, but as with many events in ASOIAF there is no one person or event to blame. There are many factors, and all had a different impact, but the RW happened as a result of those factors adding up.

[Jrogo]

Only to a certain extent. He certainly contributed to it, but as with many events in ASOIAF there is no one person or event to blame. There are many factors, and all had a different impact, but the RW happened as a result of those factors adding up.

Yeah you're right. Is it fair to say that Theon played a very large part though?

[Lord Puff Fish]

Yeah you're right. Is it fair to say that Theon played a very large part though?

It's perfectly fair to say that! It just depends on how you look at it. Often history is quite subjective, with one person interpreting events one way, and another taking a different view. ASOIAF is no different. Some people believe that the capture of Winterfell was a large factor in causing the Red Wedding, whereas others believe that it may have been taken anyways by the Boltons or others, and others still believe that it wasn't a large part of all.

[Mladen]

2-) Am i wrong, or didn't Cat propose 'another wedding' idea ?

Again, the plot to betray Robb started before Jaime's release and Cat's suggestion of another marriage. And, btw, it would have happened one way or another. If it wasn't for marriage you obviously blame Cat for, Boltons and Freys would have betrayed him somewhere else.

[shearstone]

I don't think you can blame Robb himself for why he died, but you can blame him for the RW and the death of a lot of his lords and men. It was marrying Jeyne that made it so Robb's death was extreme, but had he stayed true to his vow, Bolton and Walder would have likely betrayed and killed him anyway just, not in such a way as the RW.

What killed Robb was bad luck even sending Theon wasn't a crucially big mistake on Robb's part, Balon was already gathering his forces to war and likely had already gave up Theon as dead years ago. It would be unfair then to blame Theon's sacking of Winterfell on Robb as no-one could have foresaw Theon taking Winterfell, betraying Robb is arguable, but he was Robb's closest and longest friend so you can forgive some naivety on Robb's part.

So Robb's death comes down to the Blackwater going against Stannis and Theon's taking of Winterfell both of which had nothing to do with Robb so was more bad luck than anything. Robb couldn't have foreseen Renly dying and the Tyrell's joining up with the Lannister's against Stannis. Also it was Edmure who held up Tywin at the ford and allowed Tywin time to head west and confirm the alliance anyway, we can't know what would have happened had Tywin passed unmolested (Robb might have lost) but things would have been different almost certainly. You could argue it was poor leadership by Robb in not communicating his orders better but we don't know enough details about the plan and how and when it was cooked up nor what the communication lines were like between Robb and Riverun during the campaign. Also judging by how Edmure's character is portrayed it is definitely plausible this blame is solely at Edmure's feet and not Robb's. If you remember Catelyn councils against Edmure engaging Tywin.

The second contribution to Robb's death is Theon taking Winterfell and 'killing' the two boys. Had Winterfell stood then Robb would have two heirs and a strong castle with lots of still loyal bannermen around him. So in the event of Robb's death Tywin and the IT may seriously hinder the ability of the north to wage war and likely gain the Riverlords fealty through force as seen in AFfC, yet he wouldn't be able to do anything in the north and it would stay in rebellion with Bran as KiTN. Therefore Bolton would be unlikely to betray Robb as he'd have little to gain from the arrangement. If Robb keeps his vow then Walder may take him as a hostage during a wedding ceremony if he decides Tywin is in the better position but he'd only get the chance if Robb still has to go North which is unlikely as we've seen the North has plenty of men to deal with the Ironborne without Robb's force, made all the easier by having a relatively strong leadership in place at Winterfell.

So the blame for this goes more to Ser Rodrik who not only should of simply executed fReek along with fRamsay but shouldn't have taken Theon's bait nor stupidly take the entire garrison (why not take a quarter or half and gather more men on the way). Jon see's through a similar ploy later in the series and if you look at the map Torhens Sqaure is quite far from the sea and so tactically unimportant that no-one in the North has even bothered ousting Dagmer and his small force yet. He should have questioned why'd they take it in the first place.

So in conclusion if Robb still breaks his vow, (I didn't even mention the fact that he does so because of grief for his lost brothers as to not get inot the love potion debate) yet the points I've made don't occur then I can see Walder gaining revenge in some other fashion, perhaps fatal to Robb, perhaps not but he'd be in an excellent position at the end of ASoS with only Stannis left to face. If he breaks his vow and Winterfell remains untouched (for instance he never sends Theon) then he likely dies at the RW but the fight goes on through Bran.

If he keeps his vow and the two points don't occur he's in an even better position with Stannis left to face but now he has an extra 4k men. If only the second point doesn't happen then he's likely still alive but if the events of the latter half of ASoS still happens he's in a good position come ADwD. If both occur and he keeps his vow he's likely dead but in a far less extreme way and possibly with a higher chance of survival.

So I believe breaking the vow had a large effect on Robb's life but only when combined with these two factors without them Robb may still die but his war would not.

(Longest post I've written on this forum and likely not well written as I'm at work, but hope at least someone agrees.)

[Erkan12]

Again, the plot to betray Robb started before Jaime's release and Cat's suggestion of another marriage. And, btw, it would have happened one way or another. If it wasn't for marriage you obviously blame Cat for, Boltons and Freys would have betrayed him somewhere else.

But without wedding it would be too hard for captures. There is always for escape possibility, with wedding in Twins it become impossible for Robb.

I don't think you can blame Robb himself for why he died, but you can blame him for the RW and the death of a lot of his lords and men. It was marrying Jeyne that made it so Robb's death was extreme, but had he stayed true to his vow, Bolton and Walder would have likely betrayed and killed him anyway just, not in such a way as the RW.

What killed Robb was bad luck even sending Theon wasn't a crucially big mistake on Robb's part, Balon was already gathering his forces to war and likely had already gave up Theon as dead years ago. It would be unfair then to blame Theon's sacking of Winterfell on Robb as no-one could have foresaw Theon taking Winterfell, betraying Robb is arguable, but he was Robb's closest and longest friend so you can forgive some naivety on Robb's part.

So Robb's death comes down to the Blackwater going against Stannis and Theon's taking of Winterfell both of which had nothing to do with Robb so was more bad luck than anything. Robb couldn't have foreseen Renly dying and the Tyrell's joining up with the Lannister's against Stannis. Also it was Edmure who held up Tywin at the ford and allowed Tywin time to head west and confirm the alliance anyway, we can't know what would have happened had Tywin passed unmolested (Robb might have lost) but things would have been different almost certainly. You could argue it was poor leadership by Robb in not communicating his orders better but we don't know enough details about the plan and how and when it was cooked up nor what the communication lines were like between Robb and Riverun during the campaign. Also judging by how Edmure's character is portrayed it is definitely plausible this blame is solely at Edmure's feet and not Robb's. If you remember Catelyn councils against Edmure engaging Tywin.

The second contribution to Robb's death is Theon taking Winterfell and 'killing' the two boys. Had Winterfell stood then Robb would have two heirs and a strong castle with lots of still loyal bannermen around him. So in the event of Robb's death Tywin and the IT may seriously hinder the ability of the north to wage war and likely gain the Riverlords fealty through force as seen in AFfC, yet he wouldn't be able to do anything in the north and it would stay in rebellion with Bran as KiTN. Therefore Bolton would be unlikely to betray Robb as he'd have little to gain from the arrangement. If Robb keeps his vow then Walder may take him as a hostage during a wedding ceremony if he decides Tywin is in the better position but he'd only get the chance if Robb still has to go North which is unlikely as we've seen the North has plenty of men to deal with the Ironborne without Robb's force, made all the easier by having a relatively strong leadership in place at Winterfell.

So the blame for this goes more to Ser Rodrik who not only should of simply executed fReek along with fRamsay but shouldn't have taken Theon's bait nor stupidly take the entire garrison (why not take a quarter or half and gather more men on the way). Jon see's through a similar ploy later in the series and if you look at the map Torhens Sqaure is quite far from the sea and so tactically unimportant that no-one in the North has even bothered ousting Dagmer and his small force yet. He should have questioned why'd they take it in the first place.

So in conclusion if Robb still breaks his vow, (I didn't even mention the fact that he does so because of grief for his lost brothers as to not get inot the love potion debate) yet the points I've made don't occur then I can see Walder gaining revenge in some other fashion, perhaps fatal to Robb, perhaps not but he'd be in an excellent position at the end of ASoS with only Stannis left to face. If he breaks his vow and Winterfell remains untouched (for instance he never sends Theon) then he likely dies at the RW but the fight goes on through Bran.

If he keeps his vow and the two points don't occur he's in an even better position with Stannis left to face but now he has an extra 4k men. If only the second point doesn't happen then he's likely still alive but if the events of the latter half of ASoS still happens he's in a good position come ADwD. If both occur and he keeps his vow he's likely dead but in a far less extreme way and possibly with a higher chance of survival.

So I believe breaking the vow had a large effect on Robb's life but only when combined with these two factors without them Robb may still die but his war would not.

(Longest post I've written on this forum and likely not well written as I'm at work, but hope at least someone agrees.)

Good post i liked it !

[The Lady Lannister]

He was dispensable, as Bran, Rickon and Arya are thought to be dead, Jon is a bastard and in the NW, and Sansa married a Lannister, therefore - theoretically - producing Lannister heirs to the North.

[Mladen]

But without wedding it would be too hard for captures. There is always for escape possibility, with wedding in Twins it become impossible for Robb.

Without wedding it would happen on some other way. That doesn't change the point Walder Frey would certainly betray Robb...

[Barty]

Walder was going to betray Robb even if Robb had honored his word. The brutal wedding would been replaced by a simple hunting accident but the end result would have been the same - the King dead and the Riverlands and North grudgingly bending the knee.

[Barty]

If you are blaming anybody then Rodrik should be the one - he left the Crown Prince unprotected. The very same Crown Prince who has nearly been assassinated/killed 3 times right in WF. It makes no sense - even 20 good men would have been enough to stop Theon. With WF still in Stark hands Rodrik can easily assemble a decent sized army and kick the IronBorn out. Also Bolton cannot betray Robb now(since he would get nothing from killing Robb if Bran is alive to take Robb's place).

It was the death of Bran and Rickon which led to the whole "comforting" incident and also led to the release of the Kingslayer. Bran and Rickon alive means the North has kicked out the IronBorn and is ready with reinforcements, Bolton is still loyal to Robb meaning the defeat at Duskendale never happens ,The Frey forces never leave Robb, The Kingslayer is never released and the Karstarks remain loyal.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

I'm hearing a lot of victim blame in the OP.

"if Robb had kept his word to the Freys, the Red Wedding would have never happened. It's his own fault."

That's not much different than saying: "If that girl had never chosen to wear those revealing clothes, she would never have been raped. It's her own fault."

The Red Wedding had nothing to do with Robb's betrayal. Frey, Bolton and Tywin Lannister simply used Robb's betrayal as an excuse.

Do you think a man who violates guest right has any right to whine about Robb's honor?

Walder Frey, Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton orchestrated this vile crime for their own purposes and they are the only ones who are responsible for it. It had nothing to do with Robb's betrayal, it was mearly a good cover story.

It probably would have happened anyway. It simply would have happened at Robb's wedding, not Edmure's.

[shearstone]

If you are blaming anybody then Rodrik should be the one - he left the Crown Prince unprotected. The very same Crown Prince who has nearly been assassinated/killed 3 times right in WF. It makes no sense - even 20 good men would have been enough to stop Theon. With WF still in Stark hands Rodrik can easily assemble a decent sized army and kick the IronBorn out. Also Bolton cannot betray Robb now(since he would get nothing from killing Robb if Bran is alive to take Robb's place).

It was the death of Bran and Rickon which led to the whole "comforting" incident and also led to the release of the Kingslayer. Bran and Rickon alive means the North has kicked out the IronBorn and is ready with reinforcements, Bolton is still loyal to Robb meaning the defeat at Duskendale never happens ,The Frey forces never leave Robb, The Kingslayer is never released and the Karstarks remain loyal.

Kind of what I was suggesting in my post just adding in that if the blackwater still happens Frey still may want to jump ship though Bolton wouldn't as he'd get nothing good out of it. Robb's position was pretty dire after the Blackwater and it's only through hindsight we know he could have recovered but Walder wouldn't have known, though again like I said WF stays intact the north can sort themselves out so Robb doesn't have to go back and therefore never passes the twins.

[Mladen]

I'm hearing a lot of victim blame in the OP.

"if Robb had kept his word to the Freys, the Red Wedding would have never happened. It's his own fault."

That's not much different than saying: "If that girl had never chosen to wear those revealing clothes, she would never have been raped. It's her own fault."

Truth, but blaming Cat or Ser Rodrick for Robb's demise is also ridiculous.