Trying to Explain the Weird Rewind at the Bridge of Dream

[Lost Melnibonean]

Heres a link to a relatively short thread (two pages) on this topic if youre interested: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87036-greyscale-river-thingie-in-adwd/

But I wanted to start a fresh thread to lay out my own theory on this topic, which hasnt seen much discussion.

The Sorrows are filled with fog, a sorcerous fog according to Ysilla. She advised that many boats had been lost in some kind of Bermuda Triangle like phenomenon with restless spirits in the air and tormented souls below the water. Tyrion suggested one of the tormented souls was manifested in a huge stone hand reaching from the water with the tops of two fingers rising above the surface. Was this a natural object that looked like a hand or was it a submerged sculpture? And was there some hint in the object being a hand rather than a head or a sword or something else?

According to legend Garin a prince of the Rhoynish had led a huge army against the Valyrians at Chroyane but they defeated his army and captured him and hung him in a golden cage. He called on the great river to destroy them. The river rose and drowned the invaders. The legend suggested that the Valyrian corpses under the water cause the fog and that a reincarnated Garin leads the stone men as the Shrouded Lord. And Ysilla suggests that the Valyrian corpses walk among the stone men. The current Shrouded Lord was a corsair from the Basilisk Isles, whose native inhabitants have dark skin.

Here is a link to an excerpt from the WOIAF regarding The war between the Valyrians and the Rhoynar...

http://www.westeros.org/ASoWS/News/Entry/World_of_Ice_and_Fire_Excerpt_The_Rhoynar

After the stone hand and a few more landmarks they encountered another boat called the Kingfisher. Was there a hint in that name? As they approached the bridge the first time Griff advised that the stone men were not likely to molest them, just to wail at them. Haldon noted that their boat would be hidden by the fog and Tyrion noted that many of the stone men would be blind. As they passed under the bridge that first time the stone men moaned and muttered Most took no more notice of the Shy Maid than of a drifting log.

Immediately after they passed Young Griff confronted Tyrion about Young Griff being everything. At the end of about two minutes worth of conversation, Tyrion revealed his own identity, Griffs identity, and Young Griffs presumed identity. Griff tells him to be quiet and then, shazam, theyre back at the stone hand going in for another run under the bridge.

They passed several of the landmarks Tyrion noticed the first time but they did not pass the Kingfisher. This time a few of the stone men were pointing down at them, And three jumped down to molest them. The first landed on the cabin roof, the second by the tiller. The second was near Ysilla and Duck. Duck knocked him into the water immediately. Griff attacked the other as soon as soon as he came down from the cabin. He was trapped but drew Griff, Duck, Haldon, and Yandry to drive him off the boat.

A third stone man caught them by surprise. Tyrion assumed he was a Summer Islander because of his dark skin, but a corsair from the Basilisk Isles would have had dark skin too. This stone man reached for Young Griff who had just been revealed by Tyrion to be (or presumed to be) the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. He would have taken Young Griff who appeared paralyzed by fear or shock but Tyrion drove him over the side of the boat.

So, Im guessing that Martin was telling the reader that the Shrouded Lord was the reincarnation of Garin and that Garins spirit heard Tyrion reveal that Young Griff was a Targaryen of old Valyria. Through some supernatural power Garins spirit caused the Shy Maids weird rewind so he could capture Young Griff.

Alternatively, perhaps the spirits of old Valyria under the water heard Tyrion but sensed Young Griffs true identity as a Blackfyre, caused the weird rewind, and sent the Shrouded Lord to capture him.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I think GRRM said somewhere that the reason the Sorrows ran backwards was because it added to the sinister feel of the place. I believe that's all he mentioned. IIRC it was a Q and A for amazon books.

[Lord Martin]

Certainly an awesome scene and one that isn't discussed much, probably because its simply too unnatural to fully comprehend.

IMO, this scene fits in nicely with a reoccurring theme in ADWD, which is the cyclical nature of time. I cannot recall all the quotes, but I do remember there being some quote about time and history repeating itself over and over again.

Examples or expected examples of this include:

Azor Ahai being reborn: A second coming prophecy is perfect for a time cycle issue.

The Dance of the Dragons (Rhaenyra (and Aegon III) vs. Aegon II). Many expect Dany vs. Aegon VI.

Kingsmoot: The absence of an heir at an old Kingsmoot invalidated it. Theon could be the reason to invalidate the one making Euron king.

Those are the more in your face examples. But I also find parallels here:

The destruction of Hardhomme and Valyria... highly similar.

The destruction of the Arm of Dorne and the story of Garin calling upon the Rhoyne to destroy the Valyrians, also seem like very similar stories that supposedly happened years apart.

I cannot think of some of the others I know are out there.

But I admit, I really like the idea of the Stonemen still wanting vengeance on a Prince of Valyria.... though if the Stonemen are Valyrian... why do they want him dead? But if Garin is the Shrouded Lord, it makes some sense.

I also note as an aside that Garin's name is very similar to Gendell and Gorne, the two brother's in Ygritte's tale to Jon in the cave. Gendel's children is another legendary group of foresaken individuals waiting for the unwary traveler to come upon them. I'm not sure what the tie in is, but it does make me think of Val and the Wildling view on Greyscale. I can't put my finger on a comprehensive theory, but the pieces are coming into view.

[Raining Blood Magic]

Maybe the Halfmaester was wrong and rivers actually do run two ways????

[Lost Melnibonean]

Maybe the Halfmaester was wrong and rivers actually do run two ways????

I donk think there is a natural explanation for the rewind. After they pass the bridge Tyrion notes they are downstream of it and continuing to head downstream. Then we read two minutes worth of conversation with no lulls--no musings by Tyrion or observations of activites to suggest the passage of additional time. Then whammo, they're back upriver reapproaching the huge stone hand.

[alienarea]

It's an old science fiction element indicating that someone has altered the timeline.

They were doomed the first time but it is fixed now. Or vice versa, since it is GRRM.

[Cas Stark]

Interesting. Another thing I had totally forgotten. It definitely could be seen as an indication that young griff is the real thing.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Interesting. Another thing I had totally forgotten. It definitely could be seen as an indication that young griff is the real thing.

I don't believe he his, which makes it more difficult to figure this out.

[Yeade]

I really have no idea what the hell is happening in this passage, but I just wanted to add that I hope to whatever gods are listening that GRRM won't introduce any explicit time travel shenanigans into ASOIAF. Down that road lies madness, IMO, raising all sorts of causality questions that must be answered if the narrative is to remain coherent. Actual theoretical physicists sometimes find it difficult to understand time, going so far as to throw up their hands and dismiss the entire concept as an intellectual construct that doesn't exist in reality but is necessary to our limited human understanding of the universe. I have little confidence that any author of fiction could do better. At best, I'd expect a portrayal that's superficially consistent, yet reveals hidden paradoxes when examined closely. The one exception may be the time loop, which agrees with general relativity's prediction that the past, present, and future are fixed to a degree and simultaneous, with an observer's "now" dependent on his frame of reference or trajectory in spacetime. Also, parallel realities, alternate universes, and the like.

[Raining Blood Magic]

I donk think there is a natural explanation for the rewind. After they pass the bridge Tyrion notes they are downstream of it and continuing to head downstream. Then we read two minutes worth of conversation with no lulls--no musings by Tyrion or observations of activites to suggest the passage of additional time. Then whammo, they're back upriver reapproaching the huge stone hand.

Yea I don't really think that the river actually was running two ways or whatever just joking around because I am clueless.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Bump.

I'm wondering if anybody else has any additional thoughts about this...

[Maester2chainz]

I'll have to reread that chapter to give my input... but I always thought it was just a magical river. This is fantasy afterall.

Also I think GRRM knows better than to introduce time travel this late in the series. Unless Aegon is real... in that case anything flies.

[Winter's Knight]

So you're saying the Stone Men hunt Valarians because of an ancient curse? I like it.

[Hutch]

I haven't read it in quite awhile, but is there a chance that it's two very similar bridges? With the greyscale afflicted looking similar, it being foggy, etc. I've always assumed it was a poorly mapped out area, with almost identical bridges, and populated entirely by similar looking stone men. Probably wrong, so please tear it to shreds :)

[Mikken]

What if Bran is the cause of the theorized time issues? Interesting possibility.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Bran is already central to a "time issue". I believe, but can't check to confirm, that Jons wolf dream of Ghost and the weirwood occurs before Bran and co reach the 3EC. Bran, using the weir-network, goes back and 'touches' Ghost to try awaken Jon to his warg potential.

[Mad Monkey]

Ooh, this is a really nice theory!

Alternatively, perhaps the spirits of old Valyria under the water heard Tyrion but sensed Young Griff’s true identity as a Blackfyre, caused the weird rewind, and sent the Shrouded Lord to capture him.

Both Blackfyres and Targaryens have the same amount of Valyrian blood, right? Blackfyre is just a name given to a legitimized line of Targayen bastards, but from the perspective of the Valyrians there's no real difference. I think if anything your first explanation makes more sense -- that the Shrouded Lord was coming after a hated Valyrian.

[JungWheats]

Nah, that happens while Bran is doing all types of stuff in the crypts. He's just living within his third eye open all the time down there in the dark, and at one point he remembers having a dream where he sees Jon. Context clues lead me to believe this is the root of the Jon-tree encounter.

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

I have chosen to view the Bridge of Sorrows Rewind as a lovely and almost literal homage to the greatest Last Line ever:

"So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past."

See also:

IMO, this scene fits in nicely with a reoccurring theme in ADWD, which is the cyclical nature of time. I cannot recall all the quotes, but I do remember there being some quote about time and history repeating itself over and over again.

[James Arryn]

Ever been to Milton Keynes?