Bleeding Stars, Starks, Nissa Nissa and Dawn-as-Lightbringer

[J. Stargaryen]

I've mentioned this in a couple of places, but I thought it might deserve a thread of its own. The general idea here is that the word "star" might be tied to the name "Stark." This was inspired in part by Elio/Ran's comment that the name "Dayne" is very much associated with the word "day."

As far as I can tell, there isn't a ton of evidence supporting this theory, so it's probably in crackpot territory, however; the examples we do have yield some interesting results.

Bleeding stars and bleeding Starks:

The morning had dawned clear and cold, with a crispness that hinted at the end of summer.

The first line of Bran I in AGoT tells us that summer – an unusually long summer – is coming to end.

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

So when you read the above with "star" as "Stark," it fits quite well with what we know so far; i.e., the long summer ended and **Spoiler Alert** bad things started happening to the Starks. They both literally and figuratively bled.

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

When you apply the star/Stark idea to the above prophecy, it appears to talk about a "red Stark." While I could potentially see a case being made that Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon all have Tully coloring, reddish hair, my money would be on Jon Snow due to his half-Targaryen heritage and their association with the color red.

In fact, identifying Jon as "the red Stark" reminds me of how Jon is sometimes distinguished from other Targaryens as "the ice dragon." In other words, Jon's either – or really both – a Targy-Stark and/or a Starky-Targ.

Due to the Ides of Marsh, Jon is bleeding at the end of ADwD. Darkness gathering appears to hint at another Long Night/Battle for the Dawn, but I kind of wonder if it doesn't hint at a gathering of brothers of the NW, dressed all in black. After all, their vow begins with: "Night gathers, and now my watch begins."

Nissa Nissa and Dawn-as-Lightbringer:

Let's revisit the creation myth of the original Lightbringer from ACoK, Davos I:

“A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

So, Lightbringer was tempered in the heart of Nissa Nissa.

Dawn, we are told, was forged from the heart of a fallen star. ACoK, Bran III:

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star.

Now, if we use the star = Stark idea, Dawn seems to have been forged in the heart of a fallen Stark; in other words, an actual person. Which matches up just about perfectly with the LB creation myth.

To add to that there are some other ties between the Starks and Daynes, mostly revolving around Jon Snow. Though at least one other coincidence comes to mind in the form of their respective castle names: Winterfell and Starfall. Perhaps a tenuous connection, but one that's been on my mind recently.

[Arya kiddin']

First thing, I also suggested the Winter"fell" theory, and actually fell means, uhh something else. Google it. :(

What you seem to be suggesting is that the Last hero was a Stark, or his love was, and Dawn was tempered from his/her heart. I don't know, I don't have enough to validate or refute it. Interesting idea nonetheless.

[J. Stargaryen]

First thing, I also suggested the Winter"fell" theory, and actually fell means, uhh something else. Google it. :(

What you seem to be suggesting is that the Last hero was a Stark, or his love was, and Dawn was tempered from his/her heart. I don't know, I don't have enough to validate or refute it. Interesting idea nonetheless.

Thanks. I'm not sure what you mean with the bolded part, though. Could you explain? I'm only somewhat familiar with the Winter Fell? thread, if that's what you're talking about.

The comparison I was noting was only that (Winter)fell is the past tense version of (Star)fall. I suppose that means it's also worth pointing out that Dawn is said to have been: forged from the heart of a fallen star. So we have (Winter)fell, (Star)fall and "...fallen star(k)."

I think that Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are the same person. And that, so far, the clues would seem to suggest that Nissa Nissa either was a Stark, or that she shares some connection with them. Maybe a Stark or Stark girl needs to serve as the sacrifice to defeat the others, for example. Another possibility could be that the LB origin story is a metaphor for R+L=J, which a few of us have brought up in the past. It's one of my favorite crackpots. Here it would look like:

AA = Rhaegar

NN = Lyanna

LB = Jon

AA (Rhaegar) forged/tempered LB (Jon) in the heart of a fallen (dead) star (Lyanna Stark). Which just tells us something we already know: R+L=J, and giving birth to Jon led to Lyanna's death.

[Arya kiddin']

Ok, my apologies. Should've inserted the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fell

[J. Stargaryen]

Ok, my apologies. Should've inserted the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fell

Okay thanks, but I don't rule out the idea of double meanings in ASoIaF. And I'm fond of the general idea discussed in the Winter Fell? thread I linked. As I indicated, I haven't given it a thorough read yet but the name is very suggestive.

[WeaselPie]

I think that Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are the same person. And that, so far, the clues would seem to suggest that Nissa Nissa either was a Stark, or that she shares some connection with them. Maybe a Stark or Stark girl needs to serve as the sacrifice to defeat the others, for example.

Interesting theory that ties quite a bit together. Interpreting star as Stark means I need to go back a reread again a bit now...

One of my theories, which I think fits with yours:

I hate to say this, but given GRRM's love of wordplay for clues (some not so subtle, if the Alleras/Sarella theory is true), "Nissa Nissa" contains the word "assassin" which is precisely what Arya is studying to be. If John is AA, Arya is certainly what Jon (could) love "best of all that is in this world."

Also, it's obvious in her character that Arya would indeed do this willingly, so "her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel."

She's training to be a Faceless One, already going through many metaphorical deaths, so she'll be well-trained for the sacrifice.

Do you have any other thoughts who Nissa Nissa might be?

Another theory that ties in: Gendry is a smith, and is with the BWB/Lady Stoneheart, who have in their possession - Oathkeeper. Which was made from ICE, Ned Stark's sword, which certainly has Stark blood on it. I've always thought Lightbringer must be made from Ice for this reason. However, Widow's Wail is still in King's Landing.

So I think there will be some effort to obtain Widow's Wail in order to reforge Ice out of it's divided parts, presuming that someone (I believe Thoros) figures this out, bringing Gendry and Thoros to the wall, to merge "Ice" with "Fire". Thoros would be of good use there, especially if my theory about Nissa Nissa is correct.

I know the popular theory is that Mel will be the sacrifice (Fiery Heart) but...

I'm new here, thanks for letting me ramble.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Some believe that the jewelled sword Tommen gave Ser Loras was Widow's Wail.

I sure hope that Jon won't have to kill Arya, because those are like the two siblings in the story that love each other the most and purest. It would be very cruel to give people a lesson that one should not love a sibling like that, but betraying them (lots of siblings are doing that) is much better.

Also, none of the 'newer' prophecies refer to there having to be a new NN, so it's not sure yet one will be needed. I wouldn't mind, however, if Mel is the sacrifice. I'm not a fan of religious fire zealots, because not so hallowed were the Ori, so yeah... :blushing:

[WeaselPie]

I hope it won't be Arya either, but it would be the ultimate "Valar Morghulis for her. (this is why I also hope Thoros happens to be near her, when and if she is).

I'd rather it was Melissandre too, I cannot stand that character, but I can't think of someone loving her enough for it to be considered a sacrifice.

Ah and you must be right about Loras having WW, it wasn't specifically mentioned, but it must be based on the description. Thanks for reminding me!

[J. Stargaryen]

Interesting theory that ties quite a bit together. Interpreting star as Stark means I need to go back a reread again a bit now...

One of my theories, which I think fits with yours:

I hate to say this, but given GRRM's love of wordplay for clues (some not so subtle, if the Alleras/Sarella theory is true), "Nissa Nissa" contains the word "assassin" which is precisely what Arya is studying to be. If John is AA, Arya is certainly what Jon (could) love "best of all that is in this world."

Also, it's obvious in her character that Arya would indeed do this willingly, so "her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel."

She's training to be a Faceless One, already going through many metaphorical deaths, so she'll be well-trained for the sacrifice.

Do you have any other thoughts who Nissa Nissa might be?

Another theory that ties in: Gendry is a smith, and is with the BWB/Lady Stoneheart, who have in their possession - Oathkeeper. Which was made from ICE, Ned Stark's sword, which certainly has Stark blood on it. I've always thought Lightbringer must be made from Ice for this reason. However, Widow's Wail is still in King's Landing.

So I think there will be some effort to obtain Widow's Wail in order to reforge Ice out of it's divided parts, presuming that someone (I believe Thoros) figures this out, bringing Gendry and Thoros to the wall, to merge "Ice" with "Fire". Thoros would be of good use there, especially if my theory about Nissa Nissa is correct.

I know the popular theory is that Mel will be the sacrifice (Fiery Heart) but...

I'm new here, thanks for letting me ramble.

Wrt to Nissa Nissa as an anagram for assassin, that is interesting but I'm not so sure. Nissa is an actual name. One modern version is Vanessa. You can find more info on the various meanings for "Nissa" in a different thread of mine, starting here.

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

[Ser Creighton]

Wrt to Nissa Nissa as an anagram for assassin, that is interesting but I'm not so sure. Nissa is an actual name. One modern version is Vanessa. You can find more info on the various meanings for "Nissa" in a different thread of mine, starting here.

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

Vanessa is an a assassin, I new the Cosby's were to perfect.

I think the anagram they are talking about for Nissa Nissa is actually Ai Assassin or I a assassin.

So you also have the symbolic and foreshadowing of Dawn defending Jon and Jon's adoptive father carrying Dawn. Given the age that Darkstar tells us of house Dayne, they clearly have heavy first men blood, much like the Starks.

Language the Starks no longer speak first men but Star and Stark may be synonymous to them. The Starks speak common tongue. But some of the Wildlings still speak first men. I would ask Ran if he knows how Star sounds in Dothraki as I think the two may share a similar language root system.

Winterfell or Winter Fell. Probably a double meaning here as Winterfell and Martin uses double meanings all the time. Intresting tie to Jon is that he is constantly referred to as Snow, snow being synonymous with winter. Fell, to be struck down. Snow was felled.

Starfall, Star fall. The names are close for a reason, and the houses have been tied from book one. Though I am not sure Martin has taken it that deep, or he may have. He is very hush hush about the Daynes.

But I tell you what stands out to me in this thread is not the Star = Stark thing.

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world."

You then use Darkness gathers as symbolism for the black brothers gathering. Well if you apply that same idea to the first line of the lightbringer prophecy. Because after all why not Night, why darkness. It was called the long night after all.

Now everyone knows about Ser Patrek and his star spangled cloak covered in blood and tie it to the first part of that sentence. But if darkness refers simply to the dark color or black, then Jon who is dressed all in black falls heavy on the world. After all the darkness is breathing here, and it's breath is cold, what is the last word in Jon's last chapter of Dance. I don't think it is beyond Martin to make the word Darkness not evil, in fact it's the kind of thing he loves to do. So the second part of the sentence could in fact be Jon falling or being felled, both acts actually occur in the scene.

[Ser Creighton]

Almost forgot Martin substitutes Black for dark in Jons last chapter of Dance as well.

[J. Stargaryen]

Vanessa is an a assassin, I new the Cosby's were to perfect.

I think the anagram they are talking about for Nissa Nissa is actually Ai Assassin or I a assassin.

So you also have the symbolic and foreshadowing of Dawn defending Jon and Jon's adoptive father carrying Dawn. Given the age that Darkstar tells us of house Dayne, they clearly have heavy first men blood, much like the Starks.

Language the Starks no longer speak first men but Star and Stark may be synonymous to them. The Starks speak common tongue. But some of the Wildlings still speak first men. I would ask Ran if he knows how Star sounds in Dothraki as I think the two may share a similar language root system.

Winterfell or Winter Fell. Probably a double meaning here as Winterfell and Martin uses double meanings all the time. Intresting tie to Jon is that he is constantly referred to as Snow, snow being synonymous with winter. Fell, to be struck down. Snow was felled.

Starfall, Star fall. The names are close for a reason, and the houses have been tied from book one. Though I am not sure Martin has taken it that deep, or he may have. He is very hush hush about the Daynes.

But I tell you what stands out to me in this thread is not the Star = Stark thing.

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world."

You then use Darkness gathers as symbolism for the black brothers gathering. Well if you apply that same idea to the first line of the lightbringer prophecy. Because after all why not Night, why darkness. It was called the long night after all.

Now everyone knows about Ser Patrek and his star spangled cloak covered in blood and tie it to the first part of that sentence. But if darkness refers simply to the dark color or black, then Jon who is dressed all in black falls heavy on the world. After all the darkness is breathing here, and it's breath is cold, what is the last word in Jon's last chapter of Dance. I don't think it is beyond Martin to make the word Darkness not evil, in fact it's the kind of thing he loves to do. So the second part of the sentence could in fact be Jon falling or being felled, both acts actually occur in the scene.

The Dothraki word for star appears to be shierak.

Your speculation here about the "cold breath of darkness, etc." is actually pretty frickin' clever.

---

The prophecy that begins "When the red star bleeds ..." has found a better explanation in yolkboy's Melony Seastar theory. It's not clear what that means for the plural use of "stars" though. And, fwiw, the star/Stark idea might fit a little better there than it ought to if just by coincidence. Still, it's very far from solid.

Otoh, the overlap in the creation stories of Dawn and Lightbringer wrt to the word "heart" seems to me like it's got a decent chance of being something. I don't recall seeing it anywhere, but it seems too obvious to have gone unnoticed this long. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that I had actually read this idea somewhere before. :)

[mrlukeduke]

I hate to say this, but given GRRM's love of wordplay for clues (some not so subtle, if the Alleras/Sarella theory is true), "Nissa Nissa" contains the word "assassin" which is precisely what Arya is studying to be. If John is AA, Arya is certainly what Jon (could) love "best of all that is in this world."

She's training to be a Faceless One, already going through many metaphorical deaths, so she'll be well-trained for the sacrifice.

I know the popular theory is that Mel will be the sacrifice (Fiery Heart) but...

I'm new here, thanks for letting me ramble.

Yes this is basically what I think. But I take Mel to be the "cover story" for Arya, just as Dani is for Jon, etc. Mel seems to be the Nissa Nissa choice but a lot of clues point to Arya, and it would be the kind of poetic fate GRRM would write.

For what it's worth, I always took Nissa Nissa to mean the Second Coming of Nissa (hence, twice), and that it means "in assassin" which is a perfect anagram. The true palindrome of it is nissaassin. AA = Azor Ahai? Maybe.

Anyway, presumably if we follow this line of speculation then the sword is plunged into the assassin (Arya). Arya also means "song" or melody. Very convenient. She is part of the song, with Jon. Funny they have that deep bond/connection throughout the books. Tragic, I know.

Melisandre matches the four syllables of Nissa Nissa (just a curiosity). It's also speculated that Mel's been brought back by R'hllor, OR, is sort of kept alive and has a flame for a heart. Plus Melonie sounds very similar to melody. So IMO, GRRM is setting us up to think it's Mel (who is close by Jon and thinks he's AA), when in fact it'll be Arya. (Or perhaps another symmetry, i.e. both). Then the song will be sung.

Good spot that Mel worships light/life/fire, and Arya is training in darkness/death etc. Again, the cover story, and the symmetry.

Just my observations anyway. Why does Jon have such a plain name?! :D

The prophecy that begins "When the red star bleeds ..." has found a better explanation in yolkboy's Melony Seastar theory. It's not clear what that means for the plural use of "stars" though. And, fwiw, the star/Stark idea might fit a little better there than it ought to if just by coincidence. Still, it's very far from solid.

Otoh, the overlap in the creation stories of Dawn and Lightbringer wrt to the word "heart" seems to me like it's got a decent chance of being something. I don't recall seeing it anywhere, but it seems too obvious to have gone unnoticed this long. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that I had actually read this idea somewhere before. :)

What's the Melony Seastar theory, in a nutshell?

Also, what I always found curious, was that The Sword of the Morning has another meaning. Morning also = mourning. After a tragic death, like Ashara's. And guess what? Right after R+L, when Jon is born and Dayne dies, the Sword (of the Morning, Arthur Dayne's) goes back to Starfall. So the mourning begins, but the morning ends (the long summer). Now comes the long winter.

So basically what I'm getting at is that I think Dawn is the first/previous Lightbringer, forged under similar circumstances. That's why we also have multiple ancient prophecies. And why we have Nissa Nissa, not just Nissa.

The new Dawn would thus be Lightbringer, and LB as a sword is also a symmetry of Jon and the Night's Watch (Ice melted down, Widow's Wail, Oathbreaker, bla bla). It's a multi-layered thing. Dawn has the same mythos as LB. I find it curious that there's been no new SotM during the Song of Ice and Fire.

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

What's the Melony Seastar theory, in a nutshell?

<snip>

Here you go. It's a really good theory. Read it. :)

[mrlukeduke]

Also, if Targaryens are the cover/shadow story (in a sense) for the Starks, and Dani is a distraction for Jon just as Mel is for Arya, or something, then it's even interesting that both Targaryen and Stark have "tar" in them. Like some old etymological root. Star / Tar. The two oldest bloodlines. There are also lots of Kar (Karstark) and Var (Varys, Varymyr) type prefixes too. Hmmm!

Here you go. It's a really good theory. Read it. :)

Thanks! Fantastic thread as usual, btw. Props.

[yolkboy]

JS, I was looking at this prophesy...

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

We talked about this before and I thought it was a mistake by Mel. I now think its a completely different prophesy to the RSBleeding. Notice there's no 'red' in this one. What could these particular 'stars' be? Ive never had an idea that would explain this one - this is Lightbringer, which will surely occur some time after AA's rebirth and the RSB.

Would it fit in any way to your Starks idea? We need plural stars here.

[mrlukeduke]

Just noticed something else after reading S+B=M.

The Dothraki named the comet shierak qiya, the Bleeding Star

There's a 'k' on the end of 'shiera'. Like there is a 'k' on the end of 'Stark'.

Shiera + k = Dothraki word for Shiera (Seastar) and related to the Bleeding Star prophecy.

Star + k = First Men name for their Kings.

[mrlukeduke]

JS, I was looking at this prophesy...

We talked about this before and I thought it was a mistake by Mel. I now think its a completely different prophesy to the RSBleeding. Notice there's no 'red' in this one. What could these particular 'stars' be? Ive never had an idea that would explain this one - this is Lightbringer, which will surely occur some time after AA's rebirth and the RSB.

Would it fit in any way to your Starks idea? We need plural stars here.

Isn't this because Melisandre is covering up a lot of stuff? Hence the sapphires.

(A perfect anagram of her name is 'mislearned'; also a 9-letter fit is 'misleader') ;)

[J. Stargaryen]

Also, if Targaryens are the cover/shadow story (in a sense) for the Starks, and Dani is a distraction for Jon just as Mel is for Arya, or something, then it's even interesting that both Targaryen and Stark have "tar" in them. Like some old etymological root. Star / Tar. The two oldest bloodlines. There are also lots of Kar (Karstark) and Var (Varys, Varymyr) type prefixes too. Hmmm!

Thanks! Fantastic thread as usual, btw. Props.

I've noticed the 'tar' root possibility as well. I'm not sure if there's anything to it, but it would almost fit in with my "Theory of Everything" idea that the Starks and Targaryens share a common ancestor waaaaaaay back.

Just noticed something else after reading S+B=M.

There's a 'k' on the end of 'shiera'. Like there is a 'k' on the end of 'Stark'.

Shiera + k = Dothraki word for Shiera (Seastar) and related to the Bleeding Star prophecy.

Star + k = First Men name for their Kings.

That's interesting.

JS, I was looking at this prophesy...

We talked about this before and I thought it was a mistake by Mel. I now think its a completely different prophesy to the RSBleeding. Notice there's no 'red' in this one. What could these particular 'stars' be? Ive never had an idea that would explain this one - this is Lightbringer, which will surely occur some time after AA's rebirth and the RSB.

Would it fit in any way to your Starks idea? We need plural stars here.

I have some ideas, but I'm not quite sure yet. I'll get back to this later tonight when I have a little more time.

[mrlukeduke]

Also probably worth noting that on top of all these aforementioned linguistic clues, I always thought it more than coincidence that 'Nissa' is contained within the name 'Stannis', if not a "perfect" (i.e. 7-letter) anagram.