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Shae


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#1 Twist

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 03:05 AM

Deserved her death? or was Tyrion stupid to ever trust a whore?

I always thought this betrayal was fairly obvious, but maybe it's because I watched the tv show before reading the books and was struck by the difference in the 2 Shaes. You could easily believe that tv Shae truly loved Tyrion, but book Shae comes across as extremely shallow, selfish and only playing along with Tyrion to get all the material gifts and lavish lifestyle, a typical whore in other words.

I think Tyrion's weakness for all his intelligence is his desire to be truly loved by a beautiful woman and any hint of it he dives right in blind. I understand why he killed Shae though, I think it was unfortunate for her that he was already majorly pissed after what Jaime had confessed to him after all those years and had entered the room with the intention of killing when he happened to discover her in his father's bed. Because he already knew Shae had betrayed him at the trial, he just wasn't sure why, although the fact she said about calling him a giant should've told him that she never truly loved him. The only surprise remaining for him was the fact that she was sleeping with Tywin, who it turns out was obviously a major hypocrite when it came to prostitutes.

I think I've rambled enough. Discuss...

#2 Raining Blood Magic

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 04:34 AM

Yea the Shae in the show is nothing like book Shae. Not sure why they wrote her so different but whatever. And fuck no he wasn't too harsh. That whore totally embarassed him in front of, like, all his family and friends. Hands of gold are always cold, but a women's hands are warm.

#3 sightofthesun

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 04:55 AM

Of course she didn't deserve to die!

#4 Twist

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 04:55 AM

Maybe they did it so her betrayal will be super shocking to anyone who hasn't read the books.
But going back to the books, before I get into trouble for bringing up the show...
I don't think Shae deserved to die, she was young, fickle, and a whore, but I also think Tyrion has no choice but to kill Shae, if he let's her live she would have alerted others to his escape. It was also a dramatic way for her to have died, with gold hands around her neck. I think this moment is the most significant for me in Tyrion's character development as before this moment (correct me I'm wrong) he's never killed someone directly other than in battle. And I'm not counting his mother, as to hold a child responsible for their mother's death in childbirth isn't the same! This moment completely changed how I viewed Tyrion, he went from being a witty likeable fellow to someone quite dark and left me feeling like I didn't know him anymore.

Edited by Twist, 13 September 2013 - 04:57 AM.


#5 TheCrannogDweller

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 04:55 AM

Do you really think she had a choice? I might be misdirected by show-Shae, but still. When Tyrion was put on trial, his secret forays would've definitely surfaced - at least enough for his father to find. And Tywin did warn him not to bring her to the capital. So what does he do? He decides to give Tyrion another sharp lesson - by forcing Shae to testify against him. "No woman would love you for anything else but your money."
And Shae? Well, she is a whore. It's what she has been doing all her life. And she wanted to live. So it's not exactly a surprise that she agreed both to testify against Tyrion and then sleep with Tywin.

#6 jet199

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 05:05 AM

She didn't deserve to die, she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. If Jaime had not just told Tyrion the truth about Tysha he probably wouldn't have gone on a murderous rampage. Tyrion lost his faith in humanity at that point.

#7 David Selig

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 05:05 AM

Of course she didn't deserve to die, it's really creepy when people say the opposite. So she humiliated Tyrion, big deal. Since when is that a capital crime?

Of course she never loved Tyrion, why should she? She was just doing her job, not her fault Tyrion is dumb enough to delude himself.

Yeah, she committed perjury. But Tyrion escaped and he was going to be convicted anyway even without her testimony.

#8 Twist

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 05:33 AM

Ah, my faith in humanity is restored! I read on this forum that shae deserved to die I was fairly taken aback and I just wondered what the general consensus was.

#9 TheCrannogDweller

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 05:43 AM

Everytime I see the words "X deserved to die" my mind always conjures up this quote by Gandalf:

Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.


So, no, there is no one who really deserves death in ASOIAF. As Tyrion puts it "Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities."

#10 Buckwheat

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 05:50 AM

Ah, my faith in humanity is restored! I read on this forum that shae deserved to die I was fairly taken aback and I just wondered what the general consensus was.

There is no such thing as a general consensus on this forum, really. There is just a great number of very different opinions and there are bound to be some - a lot - that you disagree with, just as there must be many that you agree.

#11 David Selig

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 05:52 AM

Excuses, excuses...

Tyrion has a million issues with women and self-worth, that's his problem and doesn't in any way make Shae deserving of death.

Tyrion fell with a prostitute who she was paying to pretend to love him and deluded himself to think her feelings might be real. That's really dumb and not Shae's fault at all.

He treated her better than she deserved? That's a good one. He took back the jewels he gave her, forced her to work as a maid, slapped her around... a real prince charming, that Tyrion.

#12 Buckwheat

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:05 AM

First of all she is dead meat as soon as Tywin dies. She doesn't deserve to die? Her testimony put Tyrion away for good and all. It wasn't like he would have been granted life at the Wall. Hers was the final dagger, the final betrayal that sentenced Tyrion to death.

Tyrion would have been convicted anyway, with Shae's testimony or without.

It's not her fault he fell for her bullshit?

He hired her and she did what the contract said she must. He started believing it, but it is not her fault that she was so good a player that he let himself be convinced it is real and fell in love with somebody who he knew all the time was just working for him.

This sent Tyrion into the spiral everyone hates him for. After Jaime tells him how Tywin used his own son, to teach him a lesson? The one person he trusted and looked up to and the one Shae, who he treated way better than she deserve? Are you really serious?

Whom he treated just as their contract directed, except in the instance where he slapped her.

This is the reason I will defend Tyrion. If someone seeks love and is betrayed by anyone who receives that love, they deserve slot of scorn and deserve anything that happens to them.

That is a little harsh.

He is told by his father not even the lowest house will except him as a husband to their daughter. Stop and think of how you would feel about that. If hope for love is that impossible, I think anyone would get suicidal and homicidal. His lust for vengeance is so stoked after Jaime and then he finds the person that he thought loved him in his father's bed. It would make me insane and most likely many other people too.

I do not think it would turn many other people into murderers. Being disappoined and deceived in love happens. And the majority of people manage to keep some morality in that they do not go around murdering people that deceived them.

Shae was dead as soon as Tyrion killed Tywin as I stated. The guards knew she was there. Cersci would have had her killed for sure. Most likely as gruesome a death as possible. She would have gone all Bolton on her.

And this is why Tyrion had to do it?

Given the constant lack of familial love, the outright sick betrayals and Tyrions mental state at the time, I think he came out of it alright, by the end of Dance.

No, he is still a murderer and dreaming of raping and murdering his sister. He has all the right to be bitter and angry, but saying he came out of it alright is a great exaggerration.

Love is the strongest emotion. Combine that with the betrayal and you have a homicide cocktail. Good riddance Tywin. Too bad for Shae, she lived like a wealthy lady, while she was fooling Tyrion. You mess with fire, you get burned.
Sorry for the long rant, but I sure hate it when people get all clinical on this
Subject.

Nope, for Tyrion, love is not anymore the strongest emotion. The want for vengeance defeated it. Shae did not live like a wealthy lady, she lived like a prostitute. And she was not fooling him, she did what they agreed upon and he fooled only himself.

#13 Robin the Mighty

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:17 AM

Deserved her death? or was Tyrion stupid to ever trust a whore?

Both.

#14 direwienerdog

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:21 AM



So Tyrions problem is all his. It has no connection to upbringing. His self esteem issues are all in his head. Poor delusional man! Issues with women? Yah most likely he should of been a maester. Oh that's right daddy wouldn't have allowed that.
Never marry below your station it reflects badly on House Lannister. Do not seek love, you'll only embarrass yourself.
What should Tyrion do in your estimation? I want to here your happy ending for Tyrion. Please enlighten us.

#15 TheMysteriousOne

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:21 AM

Whenever I see posters trying to defend Tyrion's murder of Shae, I see red.

#16 direwienerdog

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:23 AM

Tyrion would have been convicted anyway, with Shae's testimony or without.


He hired her and she did what the contract said she must. He started believing it, but it is not her fault that she was so good a player that he let himself be convinced it is real and fell in love with somebody who he knew all the time was just working for him.


Whom he treated just as their contract directed, except in the instance where he slapped her.


That is a little harsh.


I do not think it would turn many other people into murderers. Being disappoined and deceived in love happens. And the majority of people manage to keep some morality in that they do not go around murdering people that deceived them.


And this is why Tyrion had to do it?


No, he is still a murderer and dreaming of raping and murdering his sister. He has all the right to be bitter and angry, but saying he came out of it alright is a great exaggerration.


Nope, for Tyrion, love is not anymore the strongest emotion. The want for vengeance defeated it. Shae did not live like a wealthy lady, she lived like a prostitute. And she was not fooling him, she did what they agreed upon and he fooled only himself.



The man is being framed for murder. So he should just be a good boy and die? I wasn't aware of any contract.

Edited by direwienerdog, 13 September 2013 - 06:23 AM.


#17 David Selig

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:24 AM

This is the reason I will defend Tyrion. If someone seeks love and is betrayed by anyone who receives that love, they deserve slot of scorn and deserve anything that happens to them.

That's really creepy and stalkerish, you know. So because Tyrion was in love, it makes Shae's perjury way worse and her deserving of death?

So Tyrions problem is all his. It has no connection to upbringing. His self esteem issues are all in his head. Poor delusional man! Issues with women? Yah most likely he should of been a maester. Oh that's right daddy wouldn't have allowed that.
Never marry below your station it reflects badly on House Lannister. Do not seek love, you'll only embarrass yourself.
What should Tyrion do in your estimation? I want to here your happy ending for Tyrion. Please enlighten us.

I don't know...not rape and murder for a start?

#18 The Dornishman's Wife

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:25 AM

The man is being framed for murder. So he should just be a good boy and die? I wasn't aware of any contract.


Well done, and with that you're a shoo-in for this week's most absurd straw man competition.

#19 direwienerdog

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:26 AM

Love does strange things to people. Does it always turn them into murderers. No.
But some have and have been found innocent by reason of insanity. Like I said Love is the most powerful of emotions.

#20 Lord Ronin

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:27 AM

?

Everytime I see the words "X deserved to die" my mind always conjures up this quote by Gandalf:



So, no, there is no one who really deserves death in ASOIAF. As Tyrion puts it "Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities."

ummm....the mountain? Ramsey? Rorge? Biter? Vargo? Walder Frey? Euron? Lysa? Littlefinger? Some people do deserve to die.