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S+B=M: Mel - The Red Star Bleeding / Melony Seastar (part 2 has been added on pg.9)


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#1 yolkboy

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 01:23 PM

In aSoS, Melisandre reveals knowledge of a prophesy, regarding a red star bleeding marking the second coming of Azor Ahai.

"It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

 

Melisandre is heavily associated with the colour red - her eyes, her clothes, her hair, her God - 'the red woman'. She is the embodiment of RED. If Melisandre is the daughter of Shiera Seastar - Star of the Sea, she might be called Melony SeaSTAR. When she sees 'him' (Bloodraven) in her flames, Mel spontaneously starts BLEEDING, overwhelmed by the vision.

It's slightly ambiguous as to what actually triggers the bleeding, but the point is that it could feasibly happen again at the right time and place, with Azor Ahai's rebirth imminent. She would be the RED STAR BLEEDING.
 

 

SHIERA

 

So the most questionable thing here is Mel being Shiera Seastar's daughter. The problem is that we have so little information on Shiera - but we can speculate with what we have got.

Shiera herself can't be Melisandre. It doesn't tally with the scene of Mel in her younger days being called Melony, seemingly a slave. But we can look for links and clues that Shiera and Mel might be related - Melony being the daughter makes the most sense in this scenario (later). We also see a woman cry out Melony Lot7's name when Mel is a lot younger - it would fit that the woman's voice is her mothers.

Shiera was said to have a heart-shaped face, and this description is also given to Mel. A heart-shaped faced is a rare trait, only attributed to two other characters outside of Mel and Shiera, and one of those is related to Shiera. (Mel's possible glamour is explained down-thread btw)

Looking closer at Shiera's description reveals further striking similarities between the two: (credit pobeb)

"She was the greatest beauty of her age, a slender and elegant woman, slim of waist and full of breast... She had a heart-shaped face, full lips, and her mismatched eyes were strangely large and full of mischief; her rivals said she used them to melt men's hearts."


In comparison to Maester Cressen's description of Mel:

"Slender she was, graceful, taller than most knights, with full breasts and narrow waist and a heart-shaped face. Men’s eyes that once found her did not quickly look away, not even a maester’s eyes. Many called her beautiful."


Despite all the undeniable similarities, notice that Melisandre is quite tall, which is not something GRRM says of Shiera. This could be an indicator of Shiera and Mel being closely related rather than the same person. The descriptions we have of Mel make even more sense, and get really interesting, when we compare her with a potential father - Bloodraven (later) - nearly everything about Mel can be attributed to those two.

Shiera had an interest in prophesies, and nobody knows what happened to her. Perhaps she decided to go East, and was captured by slavers and sold on. This would explain why Melony, lot 7, was a slave long ago. Reasons for Shiera fleeing could be; to hide Bloodraven's lovechild from Maekar and others in a turbulent political time or demonisation of royal bastards in the Blackfyre era. Shiera might have tried to head to Lys, given her mother was from there. These scenarios make more sense if she had a secret child or was pregnant.

Tyrion reads three books on the Stinky Steward. The "most engrossing" is about a young slave girl in a Lysene pillow house. It apparently begins with her account of how she and her sister were taken by slavers, which might be a clue.

 Mel seems to be very old. She looks young, but thinks of her days "long before Asshai". She needs to look young to be seductive/appear powerful etc., and the fact she seems very old makes a tie-back to D&E era possible. There is a further clue to Mel being older than she seems here;

Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count


Mel using magic to disguise her real age links in with Shiera and her Grandmother Serenei, who were both said to use the 'dark arts' to appear younger and possibly live longer. No doubt there might be some rumour involved here, but it could be a link/hint nonetheless. Mel's interest/aptitude with magic generally, might be a likening of personality with Shiera and Serenei - a kind of family trait.

 

NECKLACE

 

Shiera wore an exquisite necklace with Sapphires and emeralds on it. This thread proved that every mention of sapphires meant that there was a secret going on - 26/26 times in the books. The most appropriate example is in AGOT, speaking to Ned, Tobho Mott was wearing a large sapphire necklace, and the secret here was Gendry's birthing. So perhaps there's a similar secret involving Shiera represented by a sapphire necklace. Shiera's sapphires, according to GRRM, happen to be STAR sapphires.

Speaking of Shiera's necklace, this was a striking characteristic that she was known for, and Mel has a character defining necklace of her own, just with a different jewel. This jewel, a ruby, is heavily associated with House Targaryen, of which Mel would be a blood descendant. The ruby also happens to be described as a RED STAR (later). The fact that Mel wears a gold choker again points to her not being Shiera, as GRRM has said she wouldn't wear gold.

One final observation regarding linking Shiera's necklace to Mel comes courtesy of pobeb; perhaps they like the same colours...

"Her favorite piece of jewelry was a heavy silver necklace of emeralds and star sapphires, alternating."

Mel PoV in aDwD:

"Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver.



THE NAME SEASTAR

Regarding the name Seastar. It's worth pointing out that this is more than a random family name. It was given to Shiera and it means 'star of the sea', as if Shiera 'was' a Star. Knowing this, it seems acceptable to describe Shiera or Mel as Stars. Why did GRRM tell us that Seastar meant 'star of the sea', and used the phrase interchangably? It's also such a curiously unique and standout name.


"Sweet Serenei died in childbed,...the daughter she named Shiera, Star of the Sea" (note GRRM doesn't call her Seastar at all in the ssm, just 'Star of the Sea')



RED STAR

There are two occasions on which Mel (and necklace) are described as being like a red star. This could be a further hint, and no other character is given this red star association.


Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark

Melisandre’s ruby glowed like a red star at her throat


There is also an instance of Shiera being sneakily linked with the red star bleeding, courtesy of the Dothraki's word for 'bleeding star'...

The Dothraki named the comet shierak qiya, the Bleeding Star

 

The only other mention of Shiera in the five books says that the Kingdoms 'bled' for her. Again, I'd argue that these are part of a clue trail leading us to Mel being the red star, rather than Shiera herself.

If we consider that the name (and the other clues) might make Mel a 'red star', all that's needed is for her to bleed at he right time and place. Given she bleeds in such a strange and standout manor in her POV, with no physical cause, it's not difficult to imagine it happening again (perhaps with certain triggers), which would make her the RED STAR BLEEDING.

And if the prophesy is correct, when the red star bleeds - Azor Ahai will be reborn.


Some associated thoughts below, I'll use spoilers to less confuse the thread... (don't miss this Bloodraven one, it really ties in)

BLOODRAVEN AS THE FATHER

Spoiler
KING'S BLOOD
Spoiler

GLAMOUR EXPLAINED

Spoiler

REFERENCES

Spoiler

 

 

PART 2  is here and concerns the manor in which the red star might bleed.

 

 

 

Thanks to Dr Pepper, pobeb & Lost Melnibonean for a 'lil help ;)


Edited by yolkboy, 06 November 2013 - 10:09 PM.


#2 The Dornishman's Wife

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 01:38 PM

Wow, I'm deeply impressed.

I know the theory about Mel being Shiera herself, and that never made sense to me (especially because it clashes with Mel's memories from her childhood). However, being her daughter... that seems to be a strong idea. Plus of course, it fits in mindblowingly with the AA prophecy.

Good stuff.

#3 DarkAndFullOfTurnips

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 01:42 PM

Great work. There are way too many similarities here to ignore., but her being Shiera was always a bit sketchy. The main problem I have is would George leave something relatively important up to mystery that requires reading D+E to even have a guess at? I suppose you can make that argument for Bloodraven but it's not really a mystery at this point since he all but introduces himself.

I'm gong to have to reread her PoV chapter when she espies Bloodraven in a vision.

#4 Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 01:46 PM

Maybe Mel is shiera's daughter and Quaithe is Shiera

#5 King of Winters

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 01:49 PM

Great theory. I'm glad it's not a Mels= Shiera one again, but this one is good and would explain all the similarities between them, and also include her memory of Melony and Lot 7.

#6 yolkboy

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 01:49 PM

eta sapphire thread added to op


Edited by yolkboy, 06 October 2013 - 06:59 AM.


#7 Arya kiddin'

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 01:55 PM

This was a good read yolkboy, though I'll go and read rest of the Melisandre theories before getting convinced completely. I also highly doubt there would be one as comprehensive as this one though. Good work. /thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />

#8 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 01:55 PM

This is a very well-organized thread, and I liked it immediately just for that. You should offer lessons!

The evidence is definitely convincing. One thing I've always found interesting is that Mel is the only red priest looking for AAR in Westeros. If there is a Seastar connection, it would make sense that she recalled stories about it from her childhood, before she was sold as a slave. Perhaps some ancestor told her and she half remembered it when studying for the priestess thing and it sparked the light bulb to go looking in Westeros?

#9 SeanF

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 02:02 PM

IMHO, it's a nice theory, but unproven.

It would be poignant if Melisandre was an antagonist to her own father. Surely, he'd try to communicate with her in some way? It's certainly likely that her back story is pretty tragic.

#10 King of Winters

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 02:04 PM

IMHO, it's a nice theory, but unproven.

It would be poignant if Melisandre was an antagonist to her own father. Surely, he'd try to communicate with her in some way? It's certainly likely that her back story is pretty tragic.

Maybe he doesn't know Mels is his with Shiera?

#11 Frey family reunion

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 03:02 PM

It's a nice theory but as fascinating a character as Shiera appears to be I'm a little reserved about how much significance to attach to her considering she almost completely exist as a So Spake Martin creation. The actual books mention her twice, once as a source of dissension between Bloodraven and Bittersteel and once in one of the short stories as Bloodraven's paramour and rumored to bathe in the blood of virgins to stay young.

Her appearance, her heart shaped face, and her necklace are never actually mentioned in the books. Also Melisandre is not the only character mentioned with the distinctive heart shaped face. Robb's wife Jenny Westerling is also described as having a heart shaped face. (Daena the defiant is also described as having a heart shaped face in the Wikki). I kind of wonder if Martin uses that description to suggest that a character may be marked as a witch.

Having said that, I really like the silver, blue, green motif you ponted out. I also like the possibility of Melisandre being the daughter of both Shiera and Bloodraven. Maybe she inherited her red eyes from Bloodraven as opposed to it being a glamour?

#12 yolkboy

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 04:02 PM

IMHO, it's a nice theory, but unproven.

It would be poignant if Melisandre was an antagonist to her own father. Surely, he'd try to communicate with her in some way? It's certainly likely that her back story is pretty tragic.


Well Mormonts Bloodraven and Mel curiously havent met yet, as far as we know, although when mel is mentioned in adwd he cried "blood" for no apparent reason

It's a nice theory but as fascinating a character as Shiera appears to be I'm a little reserved about how much significance to attach to her considering she almost completely exist as a So Spake Martin creation. The actual books mention her twice, once as a source of dissension between Bloodraven and Bittersteel and once in one of the short stories as Bloodraven's paramour and rumored to bathe in the blood of virgins to stay young.


Maybe Grrm planned to use D and E stories to give us this information, and fell behind the curve writing them. So ssm's might be an outlet for him to release canon info - that he wants out there.

Her appearance, her heart shaped face, and her necklace are never actually mentioned in the books. Also Melisandre is not the only character mentioned with the distinctive heart shaped face. Robb's wife Jenny Westerling is also described as having a heart shaped face. (Daena the defiant is also described as having a heart shaped face in the Wikki). I kind of wonder if Martin uses that description to suggest that a character may be marked as a witch.


My theory would point to 3 heart shaped faced coming from Targ blood, and then Jeyne (there's only 4 in total). Could there be a suggestion that Westerlings have Targ blood somehow? We know Maegor married a Westerling (without kids), so there is an association between the 2 houses already.

Having said that, I really like the silver, blue, green motif you ponted out. I also like the possibility of Melisandre being the daughter of both Shiera and Bloodraven. Maybe she inherited her red eyes from Bloodraven as opposed to it being a glamour?


Mel also has cream white skin, BR has milk white skin. He wears scarlet, and hooded cloaks, they are both of a similar height. She could be an albino, as the only thing perventing that is her red hair - and grrm told us that red dye is very advanced in Planetos. Add these factors to the similarities with the description of Shiera, and every description of Mel's features and apparel is covered between the two.

Maybe he doesn't know Mels is his with Shiera?


I'm not sure if he knows. He does seem to know a lot, and again mormonts raven says 'blood' when mel is mentioned.

Edited by yolkboy, 14 September 2013 - 04:03 PM.


#13 Mrs.Grumpy

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 04:08 PM

I know TV series is not canon but Melisandre said her mother was slave and it was suggested in the books as well.

Edited by Mrs.Grumpy, 14 September 2013 - 04:09 PM.


#14 yolkboy

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 04:12 PM

I know TV series is not canon but Melisandre said her mother was slave and it was suggested in the books as well.


Yes that would fit, although as OP i better stick to book canon for my argument.

Where in the books was that suggestion that her mother was a slave - was it when a woman cried Melony? That's the only possible mother mention I recall from Mel.

#15 Mrs.Grumpy

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 04:13 PM

Yes that would fit, although as OP i better stick to book canon for my argument.

Where in the books was that suggestion that her mother was a slave - was it when a woman cried Melony? That's the only possible mother mention I recall from Mel.


Yep.

Mel is/was a slave too.

Edited by Mrs.Grumpy, 14 September 2013 - 04:14 PM.


#16 King of Winters

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 04:14 PM

I'm not sure if he knows. He does seem to know a lot, and again mormonts raven says 'blood' when mel is mentioned.

If he knows then I think Mels doesn't because she'd have known it was Bloodraven and thought or said something.

#17 yolkboy

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 04:18 PM

If he knows then I think Mels doesn't because she'd have known it was Bloodraven and thought or said something.


I think you're right that she doesn't know. The interesting thing here is, that seeing Bloodraven in her flames seemed to be a very large part of what triggered her to bleed. If Bloodraven IS the trigger for her red star bleeding, could an appearance by Mormonts Bloodraven start her bleeding again, bringing the rebirth of Azor Ahai? Might be possible, though her bleeding was weird and ambiguous.

As I said in the thread, she might have the powerful King's blood she's been looking for flowing through her veins. She certainly doesn't seem to realise - indicating she wouldnt know her family history.

Edited by yolkboy, 14 September 2013 - 04:21 PM.


#18 Mrs.Grumpy

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 04:20 PM

My question is how did Mel end up as a slave if she's Shiera's daughter?

#19 Rooseman

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 04:22 PM

Great read, thank you. You have me quite intrigued.

Another... thing that might be worth mentioning, Melisandre instantly feels a strong connection to Jon. We know, that Jon presumably has both First Men and Valyrian blood, and the only other character we know who shares that, is Bloodraven. Well, Bloodraven and Melisandre, if she's really his daughter.

Edit:

My question is how did Mel end up as a slave if she's Shiera's daughter?


Maybe Shiera got herself enslaved before (or after) giving birth to her. Can happen to anyone, really, if you frequent the wrong locations.

Edited by Rooseman, 14 September 2013 - 04:24 PM.


#20 The Dornishman's Wife

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 04:23 PM

My question is how did Mel end up as a slave if she's Shiera's daughter?


Tyrion went east and wound up a slave. I don't know, but something similar could have happened to Shiera.