Petyr Patter Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I'm having a hard time figuring out whether you're being sarcastic with this or not. They sat outside the castle on their asses and just kept the Storm's End guys pinned in. There was no actual fighting. I'm not saying that isn't a contribution, but it does not make him some decorated soldier or a tactical genius. And obviously the siege wasn't entirely successful because Davos and his onions got through.I think you pretty much answered whether or not I was being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I have two defenses for this... 1. He had to. He was marrying his daughter to her, joining their families. It would not do for him to think Joffrey the coward he was or deny the story in public. 2. No one told him otherwise. Tyrion didn't get the credit he deserved from anyone except TV Varys, I believe.He had to because he's too big a moron to see beyond the superficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I think you pretty much answered whether or not I was being sarcastic.And yet some people have argued it (and dumber things) with all seriousness. You never can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Hodor Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I have two defenses for this... 1. He had to. He was marrying his daughter to her, joining their families. It would not do for him to think Joffrey the coward he was or deny the story in public. 2. No one told him otherwise. Tyrion didn't get the credit he deserved from anyone except TV Varys, I believe.TV varys and Mace Tyrell's son Garlan Tyrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morienthar Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Olenna is pissed at her Husband for falling off a cliff and is taking it out on everyone.Mace is smarter than he appears to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 So when Roose conserves his troops he's playing the game and brilliant but when Mace does it he is an oaf? From what we see of his character Mace is looking out for Mace. There is a reason the Tyrells essentially sat out of RR and consequently are one of the most powerful houses for it.The point is that Mace's army was needed elsewhere. If they'd been with Rhaegar he had a good chance to win the battle and the War. Roose conserving troops wasn't brilliant. He conserved his own troops and sent Robb's in to get slaughtered. He'd been bought off by Tywin by then, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Dead Just Broken Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I think Mace wants to be perceived as an oaf. Go back and read Tyrion's trial in ASOS or Kevan Lannister's epilogue in ADWD. He comes off horribly in both cases. When he was laying siege to Storm's End, he spent most of the time throwing feasts while Stannis ate rats. This strategy of demoralizing the enemy may have worked but unfortunately Stannis Baratheon cannot be demoralized. I've always wondered if Mace Tyrell plays the fool and is actually smarter than he looks, but I'm not sure there's much evidence to support that hypothesis. We know when Littlefinger goes to Highgarden to negotiate the Joff-Margaery marriage, he deals mostly with Olenna and she is given credit for much of what the Tyrells have achieved. Randyll Tarly also makes up for some of Mace's perceived foolishness as well. His win at the Battle of Ashford makes Mace's siege of Storm's End seem more pathetic. To Mace's credit, Randyll won the battle before he got there. It's not like Randyll had to bail him out. In general, having Randyll Tarly around means that people can't try to put one over on Mace.I think generally he's considered an oaf in large measure because the people around him are all better at the Game of Thrones than he is. If he were a Greyjoy or a Tully people might have a higher opinion of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 There's no way Mace is as stupid as Olenna portrays him as, if only because no one is as stupid as Olenna says they are since she has a low opinion of most people especially men. I do think that Mace is a man of average intelligence who has found himself in the position of being perhaps the single most powerful lord in the Seven Kingdoms during a period of intense turmoil and chaos. In any other situation, no one would see anything wrong with him (except for Olenna, who sees everything that's wrong with everyone except possibly herself) but because he has so much power and the situation is so precarious his little missteps and goofs seem like world-shattering blunders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpinAintEasy Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Olenna is pissed at her Husband for falling off a cliff and is taking it out on everyone.Mace is smarter than he appears to be.I always thought Olenna engineered that fall....Sort of what ole father of the year Randyl Tarly threatened Sam with.Also that she did her best to run things and influence Mace from behind the scenes, but that kind of power/stategy has its limits. He is the Lord after all and doesn't HAVE to listen but defy her too much and I wouldn't be going hawking all that much....She seemed to diagnose Joff pretty well and had a hand in takin him out. Highgarden's flowers really seem to be the big players of House Tyrell but it remains to be seen how much Margery is involved because she seems much more devious in the show and we don't get much confirmation of that in the books, that I noticed anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raining Blood Magic Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 He does seem to think a lot of himself. He is not politically nor militarily efficient. He doesn't seem to have a quick wit either being stomped by Cersei in their conversation. I would say he is an oaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Chronological list of oafish actions:- Joining Renley in his coup without any pretense. It wasn't playing the game, it was breaking the board. The inheritance chain and oaths of fealty broken because of "want to"? That's a very dangerous/suicidal precedence for anybod relying on feudalism - like the Lord Paramount of the Reach. It would have generated trouble for generations to come. At least conjure up a flimsy excuse!- Marrying Margaery to Joffrey the Shit and getting Loras in the KG? Olenna told it true, the makings of Kingslayer stew. They had to assassinate Joffrey to get out of that clusterfuck.- Giving Garlan Brightwater over the rightful heir Dickon Tarly? Uh-oh, not particularly bright to piss off your second-in-command that way. Especially if you made a habit out of it. Claiming the Ashford victory was already a bad decision.- Wanting to bail out Margaery by force of arms against the Faith instead of having her cleared by trial? Bad decision, the shit would stick to her for the rest of her life and you'd make an enemy out of every pious Lord, in a really bad situation on top!- Wanting Cersei convicted of incest? Hello guy, your own ass is on the line here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I have to agree, The Hand 'throne' clinches it for me, he's somewhat of an idiot.No. He's a badass.The Hand "throne" is one of the greatest achievements in Westeros history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy89 Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 - Giving Garlan Brightwater over the rightful heir Dickon Tarly? Uh-oh, not particularly bright to piss off your second-in-command that way. Especially if you made a habit out of it. Claiming the Ashford victory was already a bad decision.I never knew Dickon was the true heir, where did you read that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Dickon had a stronger claim than Garlan who presumably has little to no Florent blood.Dickon's mother is a Florent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sordelor Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Mace is not really intelligent, but he isn't that stupid either.But since I act a lot of time more stupid than I am I see that a lot in other people too, so I may be wrong tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 He had to because he's too big a moron to see beyond the superficial.I feel like this statement is not at all helpful to really consider Mace's intelligence.Think about it this way: Mace sided with Renly who was a usurper and treasonous. His daugther married him, but supposedly did not consumate. Through LF the Tyrells allied with Tywin and saved KL at the last moment, but just Tywin told Tyrion applause is for jesters, the Tyrells couldn't strut about as the real saviours of KL especially when not so long ago they were traitors. Mace, Margy, and the rest of them have to be flowery sweet to stay on the crown's good side, part of which is probably talking up Joffrey's (nonexistent) role in the seige. I don't have the specific passage where Mace supposedly praises Joffrey, but I feel this is good explanation for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weirwood Druid Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Just like Paxter Redwyne I think he is just an arrogant oaf, he is stupid but not extremely stupid. he has some sense in him to listen to people who are smarter than him. I think one of his problems is that he really has no feeling of urgency and knowing what's important. The fact that he is building a King's Hand tower bigger than the last one despite the Iron Throne being in severe financial difficulties proves this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beorn Snow Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I hope he´s an oaf.Because if he´s playing the fool we have three fat guys pretending to be craven´s or oafs while actually being masterminds in the game. (Wyman Manderly, Doran Martell... yeah I know prince of Dorne isn´t "fat" but rather sickly, but you know... sometimes it´s just better for idiots to be blundering idiots and not secretly brilliant). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Mace is not a military or political genius but he is not an oaf either. He is fairly adequate in doing what he does and is certainly nowhere near Cersei or Balon's level of idiocy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Didn't Roose Bolton claim that Wyman is actually a really clever guy who is just underestimated because of his appearance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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