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Concerning wills.


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26 replies to this topic

#1 Audrey Arryn

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:30 PM

I just realized that in ASOIAF everytime a will is left there is war.
Viserys I will
Robert Baratheon's will

Could this foreshadow war concerning Robb's will.
I get that the stark kids are close and would never fight but what if someone uses rickon as a pawn, or something like the fake Arya is used against maybe Jon causing a succession war.

#2 Hutch

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:34 PM

With only two books left (in theory) and the others marching south I hope not, but you may be onto something.

#3 Apple Martini

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:37 PM

The problems arise when the will isn't enforced. Judging by the observations made in the GNC discussions so far, the northerners look to be enforcing Robb's will, whereas Viserys I's and Robert's queens ignored their wills in favor of their sons.

Edited by Apple Martini, 14 September 2013 - 09:37 PM.


#4 Mladen

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:38 PM

Davos will most likely have Rickon, and I doubt he will use him that way. I also don't see Sansa turning against her family any time soon. Same applies for Jon and Arya... So, basically what some call "dance of direwolves" will never happen.

Also, your realization about wills and wars is extremely funny. It's natural to expect dynastic struggles in medieval war times...

Edited by Mladen, 14 September 2013 - 09:51 PM.


#5 Audrey Arryn

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:48 PM

Davos will most likely have Rickon, and I doubt he will use him that way. I also don't see Sansa turning against her family any time soon. Same applies for Jon and Arya... So, basically what some call "dance of direwolves" will never happen.

Also, your realization about wills and wars is extremely funny. It's natural to expect dynastic struggles in medieval war...

Im not an expert on medieval war.

#6 Mladen

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:51 PM

Im not an expert on medieval war.


Wrong word, medieval times... I mean, look at history of any medieval European country... There are more wars and coup d'etats than you can count. You don't need to be an expert, high school education would suffice...

#7 Audrey Arryn

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:05 PM

Wrong word, medieval times... I mean, look at history of any medieval European country... There are more wars and coup d'etats than you can count. You don't need to be an expert, high school education would suffice...

\i don't think that's a fair assumption, I guess I didn't go high school. Thank you

#8 Mladen

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:12 PM

\i don't think that's a fair assumption, I guess I didn't go high school. Thank you


I didn't say that, nor did I imply to know your education. I simply stated the fact that high school history classes taught us enough about medieval history to know that dynastic struggles regarding heritage and wars that come from it were usual back then...

#9 Winds of Winter blow cold

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:37 PM

Jon won't press a claim if he knows his brothers & sisters are alive & well. I personally think Bran is the only one who can force Jon on to the throne. Saying something like, "I except the Lordship of Winterfell...but THIS is MY KING (points to Jon) and I will have NO OTHER!" Melodramatic? Sure! But think of what a great scene it will be on the show! /lmao.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lmao:' />

Edited by Winds of Winter blow cold, 14 September 2013 - 10:39 PM.


#10 Lord of Beyond the Wall

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:01 PM

I just realized that in ASOIAF everytime a will is left there is war.
Viserys I will
Robert Baratheon's will

Could this foreshadow war concerning Robb's will.
I get that the stark kids are close and would never fight but what if someone uses rickon as a pawn, or something like the fake Arya is used against maybe Jon causing a succession war.


Three different situations, the will of Viserys I was against the customs of Westeros (except Dorne), naming a woman in stead of the male would had result in the lost of the Targaryan house as the royal family, if i live in Westeros i would have support the male heir and save the Targaryen dinasty.

The will of Robert didn't change the order of succession it only would have put the Lord Hand as the Regent and if Cersei wanted to live she had to disregard the will: on the other hand Ned Stark also wouldn't had respect the will because Ned's intention was to declare Joffrey as a bastard and put Lord Stannis as King. On this point again i'm siding with the Queen, Stannis would be worst than Joffrey.

The case of Robb's Will is more complicated because it was made under the assumption that the heirs (Bran and Rickon) were dead and also to avoid that "Lady Lannister" (Stannis's words not mine) took possession of Winterfell and the North and with that the whole Stark dinasty would have died. The will have two parts: First is the legitimation of Jon Snow and made him Jon Stark, that can't be undone. The second part, and this is the tricky part, is the succession of the lordship of Winterfell and the crown of the North. Jon is by will the new lawful her of the King in the North, Bran and Rickon become strong claimants in this case as the legitimates heirs, I doubt that Jon would accept the crown if he knows that Bran and Rickon are alive, I think he would abdicate and act as Regent and Hand of either Bran and Rickon but I'm very sure he would understand and respect the will of his brother Robb regarding Sansa /@^^8r, this is where i think a Dance of Wolfe is possible because Lady Sansa is a pawn of the enemies of the north. Jon would see things different of the way he saw it when Lord Stannis make him the offer at The Wall.

#11 HouseOfPancakes

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:01 PM

Are you suggesting the stark kids will fight over who inheritance winterfell?

#12 Lord of Dragonstone

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 12:00 AM

Are you suggesting the stark kids will fight over who inheritance winterfell?


It would definitely be an interesting twist, since the Starks are the "good guys" so surely they will put aside their differences to fight the "bad guys", right?

Rickon is still young enough to be used as a pawn by whomever takes him. Sansa is already a pawn of Littlefinger who intends to get the Vale to help press her claim on the North. And if Jon dies/gets reborn and is freed from his obligation to the Night's Watch, and when he finds out about Robb naming him his heir(Robb knew that Jon had taken the black, so if he's naming him his heir then he must have known there are ways to back out of it) he might see it as his "duty" to lead the North even if he doesn't really want it.(Perhaps a similar situation as Stannis)

All just speculation, but who knows. Somewhat OT, but does a legitimized bastard come before a trueborn younger son in succession? Although if Robb named Jon his heir in his will it probably doesn't matter.

#13 Rheagar Prime

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 12:29 AM

when it comes to wills i always say what renly said to stannis. You may have the better claim but i have the bigger army so that was it for me concerning wills. Hell the Viserys I one was even worse sense he even called in all the great lords to swear oaths to his daughter ad heir and that didn't make a difference.

#14 SeanF

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 12:54 AM

Viserys I was apparently acting in accordance with the Targaryen law of succession, when he made his daughter his heir. The fact that the nobility took oaths to uphold the succession ought to have settled the matter.

But it didn't, anymore than it has done in real life. As late as 1740, Maria Theresa of Austria had to fight to succeed her father, notwithstanding that neighbouring rulers had acknowledged her to be his heir.

Whether a King can change the line of succession by his Will has often been a bone of contention. Edward VI disinherited Mary in favour of Lady Jane Grey by his Will, for example.

#15 Ludd

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 01:02 AM

I expect a Stark on Stark war and have done since the very beginning. Ned's chapters about Catelyn and Jon strongly foretold such a battle.]

There will as a minimum be a Lady Stoneheart versus Lord Snow battle but I assume that this means Sansa versus Jon. Sorry I think this has been as clear as a bell since the very beginning. It mirrors much of Scottish history too.

Not sure of the role of Rickon but I so not think LS bonded well with Rickon, so I think that LS will support Sansa versus Rickon too.

I am not sure of the role of Arya and Bran, although I rather see Jon, Rickon and Arya versus Cat with Bran as peacemaker

#16 Errant Bard

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 01:06 AM

When there is a power vacuum and more than one guy wanting to fill it, there is strife, nothing new. If we were in Westeros, the US primaries would be fought with steel.


About Jon totally giving up his claim if it comes to it, I really doubt it, he argued Sansa was the legal heir, but if he is made that legal heir, that argument goes out the window. If he knows Bran is stuck in a tree and Rickon is manipulated by some power-hungry guys -who don't share his agenda and won't take his orders- would he really give them power? Would he really relinquish a power that he desperately needs? I cannot see that.

There will as a minimum be a Lady Stoneheart versus Lord Snow battle but I assume that this means Sansa versus Jon. Sorry I think this has been as clear as a bell since the very beginning.

Why are you sorry? It's only your opinion, and I happen to think you are wrong, too. A Catelyn versus Jon confrontation is highly unlikely to happen now.

Edited by Errant Bard, 15 September 2013 - 01:09 AM.


#17 Minstral

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 04:39 AM

One thing about these wills in a medieval setting is that you can have two parties engage in dynastic dispute while fully believing that they are acting accordingly within the law. Martin even gives us examples in his settings himself; that the ambiguity of certain inheritance laws can cause these civil wars.

#18 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:56 AM

Rather unlikely, if just because it would have to start in book six and be finished by book seven.

Wrong word, medieval times... I mean, look at history of any medieval European country... There are more wars and coup d'etats than you can count. You don't need to be an expert, high school education would suffice...

That's kinda unfair. This is an international forum, you can't expect anybody to have visited an european or maybe north-american high school. While my history classes focused on european history and especially the Holy Roman Empire, I never heard any lectures about, say, medieval India. What would an Indian school teach most likely?

All just speculation, but who knows. Somewhat OT, but does a legitimized bastard come before a trueborn younger son in succession? Although if Robb named Jon his heir in his will it probably doesn't matter.

After any trueborn child, male or female, but before any uncles. It may be arguable though and was often disputed in Westeros (Daemon Blackfyre...).

#19 Mladen

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:16 AM

That's kinda unfair. This is an international forum, you can't expect anybody to have visited an european or maybe north-american high school. While my history classes focused on european history and especially the Holy Roman Empire, I never heard any lectures about, say, medieval India. What would an Indian school teach most likely?


Indian medieval history, which I doubt is any different than European(not that I know anything about it)... If you know that entire ASOIAF is based on dynastic struggles, it's kind of normal to believe that wills will be most likely causes of the wars in medieval times...

#20 King of Winters

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:20 AM

That's kinda unfair. This is an international forum, you can't expect anybody to have visited an european or maybe north-american high school. While my history classes focused on european history and especially the Holy Roman Empire, I never heard any lectures about, say, medieval India. What would an Indian school teach most likely?

Indian medieval history, which I doubt is any different than European(not that I know anything about it)... If you know that entire ASOIAF is based on dynastic struggles, it's kind of normal to believe that wills will be most likely causes of the wars in medieval times...

People know that ASOIAF is heavily based on European Medieval history and warfare, so if they are from a country that doesn't teach them that, then they can look up on some history from France or England if they wish.