Umm........How many Blackfyre Rebellions?

[mindchap]

I have recently preordered Dangerous Women (the anthology) on Amazon and it is due to come out on the 3rd December 2013.

Bloodraven specifically mentions that he would not kill Daemon II Blackfyre so that Bittersteel could not crown Haegon. I wonder if the following Blackfyre rebellions were fought after Daemon II died, or did they try to free him? Or what happaned to him?

I'm hoping(and I know that's not always good where GRRM is concerned) that the rebellions will be sort of a running background plot throughout the D&E tales. And, again hopefully, we will get more of Plumm, possibly giving a blow by blow of the Redgrass Field at some point. Either they figure out who he is, or he tells them he was sworn to someone there at the time.

[Dr. Pepper]

He must be pushing the story further back then, maybe spoiler issues. Or maybe he's decided not to send them to Winterfell yet. :bang:

edt Headsmashing

When he says it was never the title of the book, I think it just means that the She-Wolves of Winterfell was never the title of the 4th D&E book. It was more of a fan title.

I have recently preordered Dangerous Women (the anthology) on Amazon and it is due to come out on the 3rd December 2013.

Bloodraven specifically mentions that he would not kill Daemon II Blackfyre so that Bittersteel could not crown Haegon. I wonder if the following Blackfyre rebellions were fought after Daemon II died, or did they try to free him? Or what happaned to him?

Dangerous Women actually does not include a D&E story. It will be a story about the dance of the dragons, called the Princess and the Queen.

[mindchap]

When he says it was never the title of the book, I think it just means that the She-Wolves of Winterfell was never the title of the 4th D&E book. It was more of a fan title.

Maybe this is what got it started?:

SSM

Have there ever been a ruling Lady of Winterfell or Queen of Winter?

No. Although I do hope to someday write the Dunk & Egg story where they travel to Winterfell and meet the She-Wolves.

[RumHam]

That's what I thought umtil somebody in an olderthread pointed me toward an SSM indicating that Maekarvwas not killed in a Blackfyre Rebellion.

I'm still not 100% sure Maekar didn't die in a Blackfyre rebellion. The SSM:

King Maekar I Targaryen died in battle against an outlaw lord. Was that outlaw lord a Blackfyre Pretender?

No.

So the lord who killed him, or lead the army that killed him, was not a Blackfyre Pretender. That does not really rule out the lord being a Blackfyre supporter. I know, his death probably had nothing to do with the Blackfyres. Still I wouldn't rule it out based on that SSM. Not to mention he has been known to change his mind.

Edit: Interestingly, the details of Maekar's death will be obscured in The World of Ice and Fire and will only be revealed in an eventual Dunk and Egg book.

[Arya kiddin']

Eight there are here yet nine there were from Rivendell.

Oops! wrong book. :P

[Lost Melnibonean]

I'm still not 100% sure Maekar didn't die in a Blackfyre rebellion. The SSM:

So the lord who killed him, or lead the army that killed him, was not a Blackfyre Pretender. That does not really rule out the lord being a Blackfyre supporter. I know, his death probably had nothing to do with the Blackfyres. Still I wouldn't rule it out based on that SSM. Not to mention he has been known to change his mind.

Edit: Interestingly, the details of Maekar's death will be obscured in The World of Ice and Fire and will only be revealed in an eventual Dunk and Egg book.

Good point. I noted on reread that the surving smith at HH is old enough to recall the old Lord Lothson. I have a feeling we'll be reading about his youth in the next Dunk & Egg novella.

[The hairy bear]

Bloodraven specifically mentions that he would not kill Daemon II Blackfyre so that Bittersteel could not crown Haegon. I wonder if the following Blackfyre rebellions were fought after Daemon II died, or did they try to free him? Or what happaned to him?

It's a good question, since Daemon II is very young when he is caught. If he lived a normal life, he would still be alive by the time of Robert's Rebellion. But obviously, at the time of the War of the 9PK, he was dead becasue Maelys was the last Blackfyre pretender.

Bloodraven seems too competent to allow his most valuable prisoner to escape, so I'd bet he died in the cells. At a guess, George may try to emulate the case of the historical "Princes in the Tower", with Daemon dying and tons of contradictory explanations emerging: Bloodraven murdered him, he was poisoned by an agent of Bittersteel, he got sick in the cells, Shiera sacrificed him in his witchcraft rituals....

[The Lady Lannister]

It's a good question, since Daemon II is very young when he is caught. If he lived a normal life, he would still be alive by the time of Robert's Rebellion. But obviously, at the time of the War of the 9PK, he was dead becasue Maelys was the last Blackfyre pretender.

Bloodraven seems too competent to allow his most valuable prisoner to escape, so I'd bet he died in the cells. At a guess, George may try to emulate the case of the historical "Princes in the Tower", with Daemon dying and tons of contradictory explanations emerging: Bloodraven murdered him, he was poisoned by an agent of Bittersteel, he got sick in the cells, Shiera sacrificed him in his witchcraft rituals....

Very exciting!

When he says it was never the title of the book, I think it just means that the She-Wolves of Winterfell was never the title of the 4th D&E book. It was more of a fan title.

Dangerous Women actually does not include a D&E story. It will be a story about the dance of the dragons, called the Princess and the Queen.

Sorry about the confusion.

[Mithras]

195 - 1st Blackfyre Rebellion: We all know. Bittersteel (born in 172) was 23 years old at the time. Bittersteel was involved.

212 - 2nd Blackfyre Rebellion: We know this too. Happened in 212. Bittersteel was not involved.

221 - Maekar is crowned. Bloodraven is imprisoned. Bittersteel (49 years old) surely did not want to lose this chance. A long summer persisted for 7 years of Maekar's reign. Then a long and cold winter came.

233 - Maekar died against an unknown rebel lord in battle. Egg is crowned.

Side Note: Maekar surely suffered at least one Blackfyre Rebellion. People were rather peaceful and some thought the Great Summer has come at last. Therefore, it is very unlikely that a Blackfyre Rebellion can be attempted during such a time. However, I dont believe Bittersteel just sat on his chair grinding his teeth. I think he made preparations for a strong revolt during the summer and when the winter came, they launched the 3rd Blackfyre Rebellion. Bittersteel was involved and he succeeded at getting rid of Maekar. But the Rebellion failed nonetheless. However, Maekar's succession was problematic and Bittersteel knew that his time will come again.

233-259 - Egg's reign.

259 - Last Blackfyre Rebellion: War of the Ninepenny Kings. Maelys was the last Blackfyre pretender in the male line. Happened in 259. No way that a 87 year old Bittersteel could be involved in this.

259 - Tragedy of Summerhal : GRRM avoids explaining the details of this shit but Barristan recalls that treason is involved. Egg's rule was politically unstable because the marriages for love lacked the political alliances.

Now have a look at this:

Lord Yronwood knows that as well as I do. His forebears rode with Bittersteel during three of the Blackfyre Rebellions.

There should be at least one more Blackfyre Rebellion that Bittersteel rode with Lord Yronwood. And that happened possibly during early reign of Egg. Therefore, at least 5 Blackfyre Rebellions happened.

Now have a look at this:

Daemon dismounted to see that his fallen foe was not trampled, and commanded Redtusk to carry him back to the maesters in the rear. And there was his mortal error, for the Raven’s Teeth had gained the top of Weeping Ridge, and Bloodraven saw his half brother’s royal standard three hundred yards away, and Daemon and his sons beneath it. He slew Aegon first, the elder of the twins, for he knew that Daemon would never leave the boy whilst warmth lingered in his body, though white shafts fell like rain. Nor did he, though seven arrows pierced him, driven as much by sorcery as by Bloodraven’s bow. Young Aemon took up Blackfyre when the blade slipped from his dying father’s fingers, so Bloodraven slew him, too, the younger of the twins. Thus perished the black dragon and his sons.

Daemon Blackfyre pierced by seven of Bloodraven's arrows and he died, Blackfyre slipping from his dying hands. Therefore, I think that there will be a total of 7 Blackfyre Rebellions, wtih the last one being fAegon's campaign. That means that Egg suffered another Blackfyre Rebellion in his reign but that Bittersteel was not involved in that (probably dead by that time).

[protar]

6 rebellions with Faegon's as the 7th seems to fit thematically. So we have:

194: Battle of the Redgrass Field:

212: Tourney at Whitewalls

259: War of the Ninepenny Kings

300: Faegon's Invasion and

I would also postulate Maekar's Death as being involved. The treason mentioned in respect to Summerhall probably ties into the WOT9PKs as it takes place in the same year. But theoretically you could have two unrelated rebellions going on at once.

[Mithras]

But theoretically you could have two unrelated rebellions going on at once.

I dont think that is a possibilty. The ones Lord Yronwood rode with Bittersteel should be of very large scale. House Yronwood is not in position where they can join a rebellion against the crown by themselves and keep their heads, titles etc. There should be two rebellions Bittersteel led against Maekar and Egg which Lord Yronwood participated. Then Egg suffered another one (Bittersteel dead most probably) and finally the Wot9PK happened, which makes a total of seven rebellions with fAegon, as foreshadowed by Daemon taking 7 arrows and dying.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

How is it determined that the second rebellion happened in 212? I know the wiki says so, but I was wondering how the date was exactly determined and which quotes were used to come to the conclusion?

[CassBlackfyre]

How is it determined that the second rebellion happened in 212? I know the wiki says so, but I was wondering how the date was exactly determined and which quotes were used to come to the conclusion?

Eggs age? i'm not sure

[Sansa_Stark]

How are the Yronwood's still a powerful house after riding with the BFs so many times?

[Mithras]

How are the Yronwood's still a powerful house after riding with the BFs so many times?

Because they guard the way :D

[Mithras]

How are the Yronwood's still a powerful house after riding with the BFs so many times?

We should not forget the most critical point about rebellions. The rulers give an excuse to the rebels and the rebels exploit it to draw more people around them. Late Blackfyre rebellions did not happen as Bittersteel woke up in the morning and said "I think I am gonna rebel today". The reason for the second rebellion was the great spring sickness which killed almost all of the hostages given to the IT for insurance. People were already accursing evil sorcerer kinslayer Bloodraven for the drought and the spring sickness. Therefore, the rebel lords thought that they have a chance to turn many lords and people to their cause.

The other rebellions should also happen in similar conditions. And if the rebellion is of a grand scale, the Targaryen King cannot take half of the realms to sword. Yronwoods surely lost much after the rebellions but the crown did not want to erase them for they were not the only rebels.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

We should not forget the most critical point about rebellions. The rulers give an excuse to the rebels and the rebels exploit it to draw more people around them. Late Blackfyre rebellions did not happen as Bittersteel woke up in the morning and said "I think I am gonna rebel today". The reason for the second rebellion was the great spring sickness which killed almost all of the hostages given to the IT for insurance. People were already accursing evil sorcerer kinslayer Bloodraven for the drought and the spring sickness. Therefore, the rebel lords thought that they have a chance to turn many lords and people to their cause.

The other rebellions should also happen in similar conditions. And if the rebellion is of a grand scale, the Targaryen King cannot take half of the realms to sword. Yronwoods surely lost much after the rebellions but the crown did not want to erase them for they were not the only rebels.

Sounds about right :)

Though the Yronwoods are still said to be the strongest house in Dorne after House Martell. Makes you wonder how that is still possible, although it could be that they fought in the last rebellion against the Golden Company, and were rewarded for their service, gaining back whatever they had lost (or parts of it).

[Brynden Bloodraven Rivers]

"And if I am wrong and the realm does not rise for us, we can always retreat back across the narrow sea, as Bittersteel once did, and others after him "

I think that Bitersteel wasn't much involved in later rebellions

195 - 1st Blackfyre Rebellion: We all know. Bittersteel (born in 172) was 23 years old at the time. Bittersteel was involved.

212 - 2nd Blackfyre Rebellion: We know this too. Happened in 212. Bittersteel was not involved.

221 - Maekar is crowned. Bloodraven is imprisoned. Bittersteel (49 years old) surely did not want to lose this chance. A long summer persisted for 7 years of Maekar's reign. Then a long and cold winter came.

We do not know if Bittersteel was alive, he fought a lot of battles and he didn't live in castles, but travelling through Essos.

About the Ironwoods, they probably only fought for the Blackfyres in big rebellions, like the 1st. So, there goes 3 big ones (1st, unknown and other unknown - War of the Ninepenny Kings?), and we know a small one. I do agree that there's foreshadowing about Aegon's being the 7th, and that Maekar died in one of these rebellions.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

All I know that if Daemon Blackfyre won, the realm would be a better place. 1

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

"And if I am wrong and the realm does not rise for us, we can always retreat back across the narrow sea, as Bittersteel once did, and others after him "

I think that Bitersteel wasn't much involved in later rebellions

We do not know if Bittersteel was alive, he fought a lot of battles and he didn't live in castles, but travelling through Essos.

About the Ironwoods, they probably only fought for the Blackfyres in big rebellions, like the 1st. So, there goes 3 big ones (1st, unknown and other unknown - War of the Ninepenny Kings?), and we know a small one. I do agree that there's foreshadowing about Aegon's being the 7th, and that Maekar died in one of these rebellions.

Bittersteel was at least involved in three Blackfyre Rebellions, since the Yronwoods have been stated to have ridden trice with Bittersteel - and Bittersteel wasn't present for the second Blackfyre Rebellion (with Daemon II). So if Daemon II's attempt counts as a Blackfyre Rebellion (and I think it does), the only rebellions Bittersteel didn't fight in was the Rebellion at Whitewalls, and the War of the Ninepenny Kings (which took place around 250-255 AL, which would have made Bittersteel somewhere around 70 years old).