Umm........How many Blackfyre Rebellions?

[Lost Melnibonean]

"And if I am wrong and the realm does not rise for us, we can always retreat back across the narrow sea, as Bittersteel once did, and others after him "

I think that Bitersteel wasn't much involved in later rebellions

We do not know if Bittersteel was alive, he fought a lot of battles and he didn't live in castles, but travelling through Essos.

About the Ironwoods, they probably only fought for the Blackfyres in big rebellions, like the 1st. So, there goes 3 big ones (1st, unknown and other unknown - War of the Ninepenny Kings?), and we know a small one. I do agree that there's foreshadowing about Aegon's being the 7th, and that Maekar died in one of these rebellions.

Hopefully this will clear up any confusion about how many BF Rebellions featured men of House Yronwood and Bittersteel (also note the underlying dream of the men currently serving in the GC, the dream of Bittersteel)...

No," she said. "I would believe it of any of the other free companies, yes. Most of them would change sides for half a groat. The Golden Company is different. A brotherhood of exiles and the sons of exiles, united by the dream of Bittersteel. It's home they want, as much as gold. Lord Yronwood knows that as well as I do. His forebears rode with Bittersteel during three of the Blackfyre Rebellions."

[Rooghar Targaryen]

I kinda have a relevant quote. Stannis talks about treason. Maybe the brothers Toyne were involved in some sort of Blackfyre rebellion. I think the Vulture King was a separate rebellion thingy.

From Storm of Swords Chapter 36 Davos:

(Context: Stannis is talking to Davos about committing treason and the penalty is death.)

"It has always been so. I am not . . . I am not a cruel man, Ser Davos. You know me. Have known me long. This is not my decree. It has always been so, since Aegon's day and before. Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth . . . traitors have always paid with their lives . . . even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown. It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty."

Not much info:

Grand Maester Hareth: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hareth_(Maester)

House Toyne: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Toyne

Vulture King: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Vulture_King

From Hedge knight:

----Ser Arlan and Dunk served Lord Caron and Old Lord Dondarrion when they fought the Vulture King in the Red Mountains three years before the Ashford Tourney (209 AC).

----Lord Dondarrion took eight hundred knights and near four thousand foot into the Red Mountains to fight the Vulture King.

[Veltigar]

I'm probably misremembering this but wasn't there a mention somewhere that Bittersteek once landed the GC at Gulltown?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I kinda have a relevant quote. Stannis talks about treason. Maybe the brothers Toyne were involved in some sort of Blackfyre rebellion. I think the Vulture King was a separate rebellion thingy.

From Storm of Swords Chapter 36 Davos:

(Context: Stannis is talking to Davos about committing treason and the penalty is death.)

"It has always been so. I am not . . . I am not a cruel man, Ser Davos. You know me. Have known me long. This is not my decree. It has always been so, since Aegon's day and before. Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth . . . traitors have always paid with their lives . . . even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown. It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty."

Not much info:

Grand Maester Hareth: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hareth_(Maester)

House Toyne: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Toyne

Vulture King: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Vulture_King

From Hedge knight:

----Ser Arlan and Dunk served Lord Caron and Old Lord Dondarrion when they fought the Vulture King in the Red Mountains three years before the Ashford Tourney (209 AC).

----Lord Dondarrion took eight hundred knights and near four thousand foot into the Red Mountains to fight the Vulture King.

The Toyne brothers tried to kill King Aegon IV after Aegon had another brother of theirs, Terrence Toyne, killed in a rather painful way, after having found him abed with a mistress of his. The two brothers of Terrence tried to kill Aegon to avenge their brother, but were killed by Aemon the Dragonknight during their attempt. Prince Aemon died as well.

So I don't think the Toyne brothers refer to a Blackfyre Rebellion. I think it is most likely Stannis was referring to this.

[Mithras]

I kinda have a relevant quote. Stannis talks about treason. Maybe the brothers Toyne were involved in some sort of Blackfyre rebellion. I think the Vulture King was a separate rebellion thingy.

From Storm of Swords Chapter 36 Davos:

(Context: Stannis is talking to Davos about committing treason and the penalty is death.)

"It has always been so. I am not . . . I am not a cruel man, Ser Davos. You know me. Have known me long. This is not my decree. It has always been so, since Aegon's day and before. Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth . . . traitors have always paid with their lives . . . even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown. It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty."

Not much info:

Grand Maester Hareth: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hareth_(Maester)

House Toyne: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Toyne

Vulture King: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Vulture_King

From Hedge knight:

----Ser Arlan and Dunk served Lord Caron and Old Lord Dondarrion when they fought the Vulture King in the Red Mountains three years before the Ashford Tourney (209 AC).

----Lord Dondarrion took eight hundred knights and near four thousand foot into the Red Mountains to fight the Vulture King.

These were all before the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. Before the Second Blackfyre Rebellion (Tourney at Whitewalls) there was no chance another Blackfyre Rebellion can be attempted because

1) All the heroes of first Blackfyre Rebellion (Baelor, Bloodraven, Maekar, King Daeron etc.) were alive and strong

2) All the hostages given by the rebel lords to the throne were mostly alive

3) Daemon's successors needed time to grow up

[Rooghar Targaryen]

k, so Daemon Blackfyre had 7 sons.

Daemon Blackfyre and two of his sons (Twins Aegon and Aemon) died at the battle of Redgrass Field (195ish AC) ending the First Blackfyre Rebellion.

Daemon Blackfyre II (Eldest son Alive) was captured by Bloodraven after the Tourney at Whitewalls (212ish AC) ending the Second Blackfyre Rebellion.

4 sons alive and uncaptured. Haegon Blackfyre and 3 unnamed Blackfyre sons. If Daemon Blackfyre died in 196 AC, then the 4 Blackfyre children were born prior to 196 AC.

Maybe there was a Blackfyre Rebellion for each of the remaining sons? And then one of the unnamed sons had Maelys the Monstrous, who eventually had the last rebellion at the War of the Ninepenny Kings?

[Hardstone]

Didn't Elio say about the content of the World Book that "it will cover the 3rd Blackfyre Rebellion, the 4th, the 5th....."?

I can't find it though!

[Brynden Bloodraven Rivers]

If Bitersteel was involved in three rebellions with the Ironwoods and considering the fact that neither Daemon II nor Maelys retreated to Essos, that mean that these others that retreated add up to 7. Maybe the GC retreated after Maelys was dead and there were 6 rebellions, so Aegon's is going to be the seventh.

[Lost Melnibonean]

k, so Daemon Blackfyre had 7 sons.

Daemon Blackfyre and two of his sons (Twins Aegon and Aemon) died at the battle of Redgrass Field (195ish AC) ending the First Blackfyre Rebellion.

Daemon Blackfyre II (Eldest son Alive) was captured by Bloodraven after the Tourney at Whitewalls (212ish AC) ending the Second Blackfyre Rebellion.

4 sons alive and uncaptured. Haegon Blackfyre and 3 unnamed Blackfyre sons. If Daemon Blackfyre died in 196 AC, then the 4 Blackfyre children were born prior to 196 AC.

Maybe there was a Blackfyre Rebellion for each of the remaining sons? And then one of the unnamed sons had Maelys the Monstrous, who eventually had the last rebellion at the War of the Ninepenny Kings?

He also had two daughters and died at 26. Dude was busy.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

He also had two daughters and died at 26. Dude was busy.

He had at least 2 daughters. There might even have been more. Very busy guy indeed.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If Bitersteel was involved in three rebellions with the Ironwoods and considering the fact that neither Daemon II nor Maelys retreated to Essos, that mean that these others that retreated add up to 7. Maybe the GC retreated after Maelys was dead and there were 6 rebellions, so Aegon's is going to be the seventh.

It has been stated that there were 5 Blackfyre Rebellions. Not six.

[Brandon the Epithetless]

If Bitersteel was involved in three rebellions with the Ironwoods and considering the fact that neither Daemon II nor Maelys retreated to Essos, that mean that these others that retreated add up to 7. Maybe the GC retreated after Maelys was dead and there were 6 rebellions, so Aegon's is going to be the seventh.

1. Daemon I Blackfyre's Rebellion (Yronwoods probably declared for Daemon to oppose the Martell supported Daeron, 1st time they rode with Bittersteel)

2. Daemon II Blackfyre (Bittersteel and Yronwoods did not participate, which means to make 3 they would have to participate in the next 2 as they weren't in the supposed 5th rebellion of Maelys)

3. Unknown (Maekar's death?)

4. Unknown (The Gulltown landing someone mentioned upthread? where did that info come from by the way don't remember it.)

5. Maybe the War of the Ninepenny Kings

[Lost Melnibonean]

He had at least 2 daughters. There might even have been more. Very busy guy indeed.

I did the calculation once and figured more was pretty much out of the question unless polygamy or a succession of wives was involved.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I did the calculation once and figured more was pretty much out of the question unless polygamy or a succession of wives was involved.

How did you calculate it then? Now I'm curious :)

I know men can have children from about age 14 to about age 26. Assuming the Rebellion lasted for at least a year, during which getting his wife with child would have been the last thing on his mind, that leaves us 26-1-14=11 years to get himself some children.

Aegon and Aemon were born 12 years prior to the Redgrass Field. Since the Redgrass Field was in 195 AL (or around that year, but I'm going to use 195 AL for my counting) we know the twins (who were the eldest of Daemons sons) were born in 183 AL. Daemon II was born in 188 AL. Since Daemon was 26 when he died, he would have been born in 169/170 AL.That leaves 9 years for 6 other children.

I really hope for Daemons wife it were only 9 children. 9 pregnancies already sounds incredibly tiring to me.

But I´d love to hear your calculations :)

[Hardstone]

I always thought he went down the polygamy road. As you said, 9 children before 26 is a very tall order even for The Dragon Reborn! ;)

[Lost Melnibonean]

How did you calculate it then? Now I'm curious :)

I know men can have children from about age 14 to about age 26. Assuming the Rebellion lasted for at least a year, during which getting his wife with child would have been the last thing on his mind, that leaves us 26-1-14=11 years to get himself some children.

Aegon and Aemon were born 12 years prior to the Redgrass Field. Since the Redgrass Field was in 195 AL (or around that year, but I'm going to use 195 AL for my counting) we know the twins (who were the eldest of Daemons sons) were born in 183 AL. Daemon II was born in 188 AL. Since Daemon was 26 when he died, he would have been born in 169/170 AL.That leaves 9 years for 6 other children.

I really hope for Daemons wife it were only 9 children. 9 pregnancies already sounds incredibly tiring to me.

But I´d love to hear your calculations :)

It's simple. Daemon was 26 when he died and his oldest two (twins, right?) Were 12. So he started having kids at 14 and he was knocking up his wife (unless one of Brown Ben's forebears was involved) every 15 months. I'm not gonna say one mote girl was impossible but one every 15 months is already improbable. But in a world with dragons an undead...

[Mithras]

How are the Yronwood's still a powerful house after riding with the BFs so many times?

There is another textual evidence from TPatQ about why the Yrownwoods are still kicking.

Prince Daemon echoed the queen’s misgivings. Giving pardons to rebels and traitors only sowed the seeds for fresh rebellions, he insisted. “The war will end when the heads of the traitors are mounted on spikes above the King’s Gate, and not before.” Aegon II would be found in time, “hiding under some rock,” but they could and should bring the war to Aemond and Daeron. The Lannisters and Baratheons should be destroyed as well, so their lands and castles might be given to men who had proved more loyal. Grant Storm’s End to Ulf White and Casterly Rock to Hard Hugh Hammer, the prince proposed … to the horror of the Sea Snake. “

Half the lords of Westeros will turn against us if we are so cruel as to destroy two such ancient and noble houses,” Lord Corlys said.

He had at least 2 daughters. There might even have been more. Very busy guy indeed.

He was his father's son. I think had he lived, he would also grow obese and corrupt like his father. I am a believer of A(emon) + N(aerys) = D(aeron) because we dont see an Unworthy archetype in later Targaryen kings. However, there is an almost exact match between Aegon IV and Illyrio, who may have the blood of Aegon IV in his veins through Daemon Blackfyre.

I'm probably misremembering this but wasn't there a mention somewhere that Bittersteek once landed the GC at Gulltown?

I think that was at the 3rd Blackfyre Rebellion which claimed Maekar's life. That rebellion should be as damaging as the first one because Bloodraven was not in the field, Maekar did not have enough brain power and Bittersteel was at his prime as a commander. After Maekar's death, Bittersteel should have retreated to Essos only to strike again, knowing that most of Maekar's successors were trash.

[Deep Like Davos]

It's a good question, since Daemon II is very young when he is caught. If he lived a normal life, he would still be alive by the time of Robert's Rebellion. But obviously, at the time of the War of the 9PK, he was dead becasue Maelys was the last Blackfyre pretender.

Bloodraven seems too competent to allow his most valuable prisoner to escape, so I'd bet he died in the cells. At a guess, George may try to emulate the case of the historical "Princes in the Tower", with Daemon dying and tons of contradictory explanations emerging: Bloodraven murdered him, he was poisoned by an agent of Bittersteel, he got sick in the cells, Shiera sacrificed him in his witchcraft rituals....

Or he was sent to the wall by Aegon the same time as Bloodraven... The quote is that he emptied the dungeons.

[ckal]

Well the Blackfyre Rebellions ended when Maelys the Monstrous died, so there would be two more between the one in 212 and the one I just mentioned. I also remember reading that Bittersteel never came back to Westeros so clearly he was not involved in any of them outside the first.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Or he was sent to the wall by Aegon the same time as Bloodraven... The quote is that he emptied the dungeons.

That would have been too dangerous. Rebelling was already breaking oaths. Going to the Wall would not stop Bittersteel from trying to take Daemon II and continueing his rebellions with him as king.

Well the Blackfyre Rebellions ended when Maelys the Monstrous died, so there would be two more between the one in 212 and the one I just mentioned. I also remember reading that Bittersteel never came back to Westeros so clearly he was not involved in any of them outside the first.

The Yronwoods have ridden with Bittersteel in three of the Blackfyre Rebellions. So Bittersteel fought at least twice more in Westeros after Daemon died on the Redgrass Field.