An Analysis of the Prophecies concerning Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised (Spoilers Books 1-5)(Long Post)

[Aderyn the Sly]

GRRM confirmed that AA=PtwP, but I don't know if the Hero from the Long Night is the same, nor is the Khal of Khals that will unite the Dothraki under a single Khalasar. It's interesting to actually pick apart the different parts of the two prophecies and realize they have differences even though they foretell the same event/person. While AA prophecy mentions Lightbringer, the PtwP does not. Also, AA is said to come after a long summer, while there is no mention of when the PtwP will arrive. I don't know if it's important but I always paid attention to the differences in case one was improperly interpreted (especially since we don't know what either prophecy entails, just what characters say it entails which could be a misinterpretation - looking at you Mel!). Another big difference is what while AA is said to have "the darkness flee before him" but, again, little mention of what PtwP is actually said to do.

Now down to some fun quotes:

The Three Headed Dragon

A Clash of Kings has the very first mention of the PtwP in Dany's vision in the HotU. I’ve always stated that the HotU “visions” needed to be taken with a grain of salt, since they are “Sights and sounds of days gone by days to come and days that never were”; however GRRM confirmed that this is really Rhaegar, Elia, and their son Aegon.

“Aegon” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the prince replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the women in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

We know Rhaegar read something in a book that led him to ask the Master-of-Arms, Willem Darry, to train him (Interestingly enough the man who fled Dragonstone with Daenerys and Viserys). This vision shows us that sometime between that event and the birth of his son that he realized he was not the PtwP, and that it might be his son instead. This is also interesting this is the first evidence that the PtwP is said to be a warrior, whereas the prophecy for AA specifically mentions that wields Lightbringer from the fire and that he is a ‘Warrior of Light”. Additionally, “the dragon has three heads,” is also mentioned here for the first time. Now, for those of you who haven’t read the Dunk and Egg books (first off, do so, they’re awesome) let me tell you that many of the Targaryens in those stories have visions of dragons, but they are not literal dragons, rather stand-ins for the Targaryens. Seeing a dragon eating pie is really seeing a Targaryen eating pie, and so on, and the Targaryens know this about their own visions. So I take this to mean that in the PtwP prophecy they “know” it’s someone of Targaryen descent. Although, this could be a misinterpretation on their part.

Battle with Darkness and Lightbringer

In Storm of Swords, we hear of Azor Ahai from Melisandre. It is here we have the first mention of a battle coming in the winter after a long summer

”In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And tha sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.” She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the fathered hose. “Azor Ahai, beloved of R’hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!”

Stannis Baratheon strode forward like a soldier marching into battle. His squires stepped up to attend him. Davos watched as his son Devan pulled a long padded glove over the king’s right hand. The boy wore a cream-colored doublet with a fiery heart sewn on the breast. Bryen Farring was similarly garbed as he tied a stiff lever cape around His Grace’s neck. Behind, Davos heard a faint clank and clatter of bells. “Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

The King plunged into the fire with his teeth clenched, holding the leather cloak before him to keep off the flames. He went straight to the Mother, grasped the sword with his gloved hand, and wrenched it free of the burning wood with a single jerk. Then he was retreating, the sword held high, jade-green flames swirling around cherry-red steel. Guards rushed to beat out the cinders that clung to the King’s clothing.

Now I included this whole passage for a few reasons. People seem to think that the whole forging of Lightbringer needs to happen again. That there has to be a Nissa Nissa that Azor Ahai will sacrifice to forge the perfect weapon. However, based on the evidence we have that doesn’t seem to be the case. He will ‘draw from the fire a burning sword’. This could be figurative in one way or another or it could be literal as Mel made it with Stannis. In the text fire is often associated with destruction, or with rebirth (Dany with her dragons on Drogo’s pyre, the Sack of Winterfell and Bran’s escape, etc.).

(As a side note - the colors of flames Patchface mentions are also the colors of Obsidian Stannis says he has seen on Dragonstone later in Storm of Swords)

When the Stars Bleed

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

‘When the stars bleed’ is an interesting wording. It’s plural. Almost everyone in the books take the comet as a bleeding star, which seems very literal. It’s understood that the educated seem to know the difference between celestial bodies enough to know the difference between a comet and a star. It could just mean when the sky or heavens bleed, which would then have the comet make sense than a comet is a bleeding star.

If we look for figurative bleeding stars we have a lot of options. Several families have coats of arms that include stars such as: Ser Duncan the Tall (Green Shooting Star), House Sunglass (Seven pointed Stars) of which Guncer was burned at Dragonstone, House Templeton (Nine stars) who might possibly be the Stark relations in the Vale, Dondarion (Four pointed Stars), Starfall (Falling Star(s?)), the Poor Fellows of the faith (seven pointed Stars) and House Tarbeck that rose against the Lannisters. There are also a few houses yet to appear in the books that have stars in their coats: House Langwand, House Whitehill, House Ruthermont, and House Sloane that can be derived from semi-canon sources.

Born Amidst Smoke and Salt

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake the dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt.

”It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought...the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise!”

Salt and smoke are mentioned in both. This is one of the few elements that is pretty much exactly the same in both versions of the prophecy. Both can be taken literally or figuratively. Images of smoke are mentioned often, usually when something is hidden or as a warning sign of danger to come (or that the danger has already happened, but that isn’t much in the way of foreshadowing). Salt is important in a lot of respects. It’s what is said to be the proper way of receiving guest rights, especially to Northern Lords. Salt can also reference salt water, either in the sea or in tears as the quotes above suggest.

Against the Great Other

You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red coment was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.” Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing.

This is interesting because of the title Mel gives Stannis, “the prince that was promised’. This is also the tittle of the Targaryen version, but there is no mention of Azor Ahai or any language to suggest ‘rebirth’ in the Targaryen version as of yet. Also, the “Great Other” is a god specific to the Religion of R’hllor. We do not have a specific enemy mentioned of who the PtwP will fight in the “War of the Dawn”.

Melisandre and Aemon

Storm of Swords is also where we have interaction between two peoples who have their own version of the prophecy, namely Maester Aemon and Mel.

“Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we’ve come to fight is no pretty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us.”

The officers did not know how to take that, Sam could see. Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck exchanged a doubtful look, Janos Slynt was fuming, and Three-Finger Hobb looked as though he would sooner be back chopping carrots. But all of them seemed surprised to hear master Aemon murmer, “It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?”

“He stands before you,” Melisandre declared, “though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of Heroes.”

Her words seemed to make the king desperately uncomfortable, Sam saw.

Aemon recognizes what Mel is saying and asks her "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?" And Mel is not surprised by this, but I still find her reaction odd. She knows to Aemon is, as we find out later, yet she talked down to him as though he was just another brother of the Night’s Watch and not someone who would have knowledge of the prophecy like she does. According to Aemon the PtwP prophecy dates back thousands of years, but is not more exact than that, but it was long before the Targaryen's left Valyria before the Doom. Mel states that the AA prophecy is about 5,000 years old. Clearly the last noble family of Valyria would know of a prophecy if Valyria was its origin. Secondly how and why did it come to be spread to two civilizations as far apart as Asshai and Valyria? Did is spread in other ways as well that we haven't seen yet?

Maester Aemon smiled. “Your Grace,” he said, “before we go, I wonder if you would do us the great honor of showing us this wondrous blade we have all heard so very much of.”

“You want to see Lightbringer? A blind man?”

“Sam shall be my eyes.”

The king frowned. “Everyone else has seen the thing, why not a blind man?” His sword belt and scabbard hung from a peg near the hearth. He took the belt down and drew the long sword out. Steel scraped against wood and leather, and radiance filled the solar; shimmering, shifting, a dance of gold and orange and red light, all the bright colors of fire.

...

Maester Aemon was lost in thought as Sam helped him down the narrow turnpike stair. But as they were crossing the yard, he said, “I felt no head. Did you, Sam?”

“Heat? From the sword?” he thought back. “The air around it was shimmering, the way it does above a hot brazier.”

“Yet you felt no hear, did you? And the scabbard that held the sword, it is wood and leather, yet? I heard the sound when His Grace drew out the blade. Was the leather scorched, Sam? Did the wood seem burnt or blackened?”

“No,” Sam admitted. “Not that I could see.”

Maester Aemon nodded. Back in his own chambers, he asked Sam to set a fire and help him to his chair beside the hearth. “It is hard to be so old,” he sighed as he settled onto the cushion. “And harder still to be so blind. I miss the sun. And books. I miss books most of all.”

So now we know that the Prince that was Promised version of the prophecy also foretold a sword, and the specifics of it. We know that while Stannis’s sword gives off light, it doesn't heat. Davos used it to read the letter that brought Stannis north in the first place, and now Sam says it bends light around it similar to how a fire would. So now we know that the PtwP prophecy spoke of a flaming sword as well, one that would give off heat and possibly scorch the scabbard, if not the title Lightbringer specifically.

Side note: I wonder if Maester Aemon was thinking of a specific book that he would be missing right now. Is there perhaps a book of Targaryen Prophecies?

Aged Maester Aemon

In Feast For Crows interactions with Maester Aemon gets interesting.

Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.

I do believe that this is the first time Dragons are mentioned as tying into either of the prophecies. I find that interesting for a few reasons. In the MK Aegon tells of a prophecy read in a book by Aerys-his uncle not his son-of a day when dragons would return. I don't know if this is part of the PtwP prophecy or its own. I mention this because it could be an unreliable recollection of Aemon getting two prophecies mixed up in his aged mind. This brings up the idea of other possible inconsistencies such as Maester Aemon claiming that the PtwP has to be the blood of the dragon. (That prophecy might also have something to do with the Tragedy of Summerhall)

"No one ever looked for a girl. It was a prince that was promised... Rhaegar, I thought... The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female... Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke... Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes... Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it... They must send her a Maester. Daenerys must be counseled, taught, protected..."

A few thoughts, Aemon clearly states that the PtwP is the Blood of the Dragon, he even concedes that Stannis has it by Rhaelle. Although Mel claims Stannis is Azor Ahai, and Stannis is a Targaryen descendent, she never says that this is part of the prophecy.

He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy.

I know this one was mentioned further up, but I wanted to expand on this a little more. Aemon claims he thought it was Rhaegar too, and that Rhaegar shared this idea. Knowing Aemon has been at the Wall for years before Rhaegar was even born this is a little odd. Did they communicate while Rhaegar was growing up? Or did Aemon just receive news about his great nephew and realize they had the same thought?

Had to add Tyrion

So in Dance with Dragons, we have evidence that somehow Tyrion gained knowledge of one version of the prophecy:

“What is he saying?” Tyrion asked the knight.

“That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit...conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders...”

The hairs on the back of Tyrion’s neck began to prickle. Prince Aegon will find no friend here. The Red Priest spoke of an ancient prophecy, a prophecy that foretold the coming of a hero to deliver the world from darkness. One hero. Not two. Daenerys has dragons, Aegon does not. The dwarf did not need to be a prophet himself to foresee how Benerro and his followers might react to a second Targaryen.

So, we don’t know what version either Benerro or Tyrion know, but a few things come to mind. One, Tyrion loves reading. We often see him with books, and quite a few times with books on dragons. I think it’s safe to assume he knows the version that the Targaryens know. He also states that it is one hero, despite the ‘dragons have three heads’ (although that part might not be in the version he knows, but I think it’s a safe assumption it is). Now, Benerro likely knows the Azor Ahai prophecy that Mel knows, and he talks of a ‘dark eye’ which could be another reference to the “Great Other” or it could be something else entirely.

To the point:

So in conclusion, I think it’s important to keep the facts straight when discussing possible candidates for Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised, and remember they are two separate prophecies told from a variety of characters and (almost) any piece could be a misinterpretation by their part. (Pretty sure by now we’re sure of the smoke and salt, as it’s mentioned the most).

Azor Ahai, “Lightbrigner” (the name), and the battle with the Great Other are foretold in the R’hllor version of the prophecy. A dark eye may or may not also be foretold in the Azor Ahai prophecy.

The Song of Ice and Fire, the Dragon has three heads (and is therefore a Targaryen) are foretold in the Prince that was Promised version of the prophecy.

A flaming sword (although without a name in the latter, or a means of coming by it), the title “prince that was promised”, born amongst smoke and salt, the battle for the dawn, and the bleeding star are foretold in both.

If you look at the elements that are exclusive to either, you notice that they are biased towards the source. That the Targaryen prophecy is interpreted in a way that makes it out to be a Targaryen is the Prince that was Promised, while the R’hllor version makes it out to be a champion of their religion is Azor Ahai. Both of them could be misinterpreting an even older prophecy.

The entire religion of R’hllor seems like it’s related to this prophecy. The night fires that “keep the darkness away” almost directly correspond to Azor Ahai defeating the Great Other and keeping the Darkness at bay or the “battle of dawn”.

On the other hand the Targaryens also see themselves as building up for greatness. They escaped the Doom of Valyria, they conquered Westeros, and they are the last dragon riders (supposedly). It would make sense they would interpret it as being for them, especially since they were prophets of a sort too and could have possibly had a member have a vision of something that would link it to their family.

So the common elements are what are important I think, and it applies to a wider range of individuals. I’m not saying one version is right or wrong, that there isn’t a Lightbringer or a Dragon with Three Heads. What I am saying is that a prophecy is a tricky riddle, one that we don’t have all the clues for, and possibly some false ones.

Also, they keep mentioning books and it’s driving me crazy trying to track them down in the text to see if they overlap.

TL:DR

I think that the Targaryens prophecy “Dragon has Three Heads” and the Religion of R’hllor prophecy of “Azor Ahai” are two different versions of an older prophecy that could have altered in the retelling and either one or both may have conditions in them that aren't in the real prophecy but are in their interpretation of them.

I would love feedback in this idea.

[Lady Jenny of Austraatt]

One feather became 5 hens :thumbsup:

[yolkboy]

I just wanted to say i enjoyed reading this. i want to feedback but i'm super sleepy, anyway thanks for the effort Aderyn!

[cocoalover1956]

For a long time I thought they were the same prophecy, but then someone on this site pointed out that the AAR prophecy is older than the Targaryen dynasty in Westeros.

Something I found interesting: Azor Ahai sounds like a Valyrian name, but he was in Westeros long before the Targaryens fled the Doom to Dragonstone. There must have been contact between the two continents long ago for the story of Azor Ahai to find its back to Essos and become a prophecy.

[Mladen]

I am so confused with your conclusion here. Honestly, you needed such long post for what? Conclusion was basically the first line of this OP. It seems like you fleshed out some facts, but overall I am not certain where you are heading. We already knew all of this, the topic has been discussed so many times in the past. I see nothing new here. Analysis is the guideline from point 1 to point 1? Don't get me wrong, it is all beautifully written, quotes show your point, you presented the case well, But, your first line and your conclusion are basically the same... If I have missed something, please tell me, but there is nothing new or theoretical here to discuss. Is the point of the thread discussion that AAR prophecy and PTWP are same?

Also, you made the error regarding TPTWP. TPTWP is not any Targaryen, it is someone from Aerys/Rhaella line.

[Aderyn the Sly]

One feather became 5 hens :thumbsup:

I just wanted to say i enjoyed reading this. i want to feedback but i'm super sleepy, anyway thanks for the effort Aderyn!

Thanks guys. It's just really been bugging me that we don't have much in terms of specifics to the prophecy, and both the versions I list are totally biased towards the source so much that it just seems like there's a piece to the puzzle that is missing. Them misinterpreting it makes sense to me.

For a long time I thought they were the same prophecy, but then someone on this site pointed out that the AAR prophecy is older than the Targaryen dynasty in Westeros.

Something I found interesting: Azor Ahai sounds like a Valyrian name, but he was in Westeros long before the Targaryens fled the Doom to Dragonstone. There must have been contact between the two continents long ago for the story of Azor Ahai to find its back to Essos and become a prophecy.

We don't know where Azor Ahai is from actually. I don't think that he was in Westeros though. The prophecy supposedly dates to about 1,000 years after the Andal invasion, and 5,000 after the First Men, so there were people there, but I don't get the impression that events there would have a huge effect on Essos, let alone in the region further east of the Shaddowland or the Freehold of Valyria. Unless you think that Azor Ahai is the same as the Last Hero, which I know some do, but we don't have textual evidence to support that.

[Aderyn the Sly]

I am so confused with your conclusion here. Honestly, you needed such long post for what? Conclusion was basically the first line of this OP. It seems like you fleshed out some facts, but overall I am not certain where you are heading. We already knew all of this, the topic has been discussed so many times in the past. I see nothing new here. Analysis is the guideline from point 1 to point 1? Don't get me wrong, it is all beautifully written, quotes show your point, you presented the case well, But, your first line and your conclusion are basically the same... If I have missed something, please tell me, but there is nothing new or theoretical here to discuss. Is the point of the thread discussion that AAR prophecy and PTWP are same?

Also, you made the error regarding TPTWP. TPTWP is not any Targaryen, it is someone from Aerys/Rhaella line.

I think you missed my point. I theorize that there was a Prophecy that after thousands of years of retelling was altered based on who knew it. The Targaryen prophecy states that the Dragon has Three heads, that the PtwP has the song of Ice and Fire, and that they (may or may not) be Dragonriders. There is no mention of this in the Azor Ahai version that Mel tells. Also, Mel's version has the names of "Azor Ahai" and "Lightbringer" which are not mentioned by those who speak of the PtwP version known to the Targaryens.

As for the PtwP being of Aerys & Rhaella's line, that was told way more recently by the headswitch during the reign of Aegon. They knew before it that it was a Targaryen, hence their sigil. (Valyrians didn't have house sigils).

So I'm saying that either one of these version may contain parts that aren't in the real (original) prophecy. My mention of Aemon talking about the return of Dragons and the mention of a prophecy in a book that Aerys found about the return of dragons might be him merging the two in his mind. This may have happened with the Prince that was Promised prophecy over thousands of years.

[Mladen]

I think you missed my point. I theorize that there was a Prophecy that after thousands of years of retelling was altered based on who knew it. The Targaryen prophecy states that the Dragon has Three heads, that the PtwP has the song of Ice and Fire, and that they (may or may not) be Dragonriders. There is no mention of this in the Azor Ahai version that Mel tells. Also, Mel's version has the names of "Azor Ahai" and "Lightbringer" which are not mentioned by those who speak of the PtwP version known to the Targaryens.

No, it seems that I actually understood your point perfectly. First, PTWP prophecy never involved three headed dragon, as far as I know. That was only Rhaegar;s conjecture, and the fact the title - PTWP is singular, that it speaks about one person, means that Rhaegar was so wrong.

As for the PtwP being of Aerys & Rhaella's line, that was told way more recently by the headswitch during the reign of Aegon. They knew before it that it was a Targaryen, hence their sigil. (Valyrians didn't have house sigils).

Yes, but of all people having Targaryen blood, only those of Aerys/Rhaella blood are eligible. Plus, again, as we know three heads of dragons were never part of PTWP prophecy. Rhaegar came up with that part.

So I'm saying that either one of these version may contain parts that aren't in the real (original) prophecy. My mention of Aemon talking about the return of Dragons and the mention of a prophecy in a book that Aerys found about the return of dragons might be him merging the two in his mind. This may have happened with the Prince that was Promised prophecy over thousands of years.

All that is fine, but you got all of that in the first sentence with AAR=TPTWP. Naturally, interpretations are another thing, but you got your point in first line.

[Aderyn the Sly]

No, it seems that I actually understood your point perfectly. First, PTWP prophecy never involved three headed dragon, as far as I know. That was only Rhaegar;s conjecture, and the fact the title - PTWP is singular, that it speaks about one person, means that Rhaegar was so wrong.

Rhaegar is not the one that came to this conclusion - again look at their sigil. He is just the first person on page to say so.

Yes, but of all people having Targaryen blood, only those of Aerys/Rhaella blood are eligible. Plus, again, as we know three heads of dragons were never part of PTWP prophecy. Rhaegar came up with that part.

Once again, according to a hedgewitch, which is information that we got third hand. We don't know what she really told Aegon. She could have had a prophecy that was only vaguely related, but they interpreted it that it meant the PtwP.

All that is fine, but you got all of that in the first sentence with AAR=TPTWP. Naturally, interpretations are another thing, but you got your point in first line.

I don't know how to make this any clearer, but that isn't my point. My point is that there was a prophecy. I theorize that after a few thousand years it got altered in Valyria or perhaps merged with another prophecy since we know that Targaryens and maybe other Valyrians had this gift, and that it also got altered near Asshai, perhaps by the founders of the religion of R'hllor, and that neither one of them is the true prophecy, although they have their origins in it and some elements stayed the same.

There is a Prince that is Promised who will champion the Battle of the Dawn with a flaming sword, he will be born amongst smoke and salt and be heralded by a bleeding star.

After thousands of years the Targaryens could have had a vision of a three headed dragon who will battle an enemy of ice and therefore his song will be of ice and fire. They thought this three headed dragon was the same as the Prince who was promised. As we know in Targaryen visions dragons equil Targaryens, so they know it's about one of their descendents.

Meanwhile, in Asshai, or wherever the Religion of R'hllor is founded, there is a vision of a hero, or perhaps the legend of Azor Ahai already exists, and they again merge these two legends together and think that the Prince that is Promised will be the reincarnation of Azor Ahai.

[Mladen]

Rhaegar is not the one that came to this conclusion - again look at their sigil. He is just the first person on page to say so.

And, again, where is the proof of this claim? SSMs, D&E, WOIAF?

Once again, according to a hedgewitch, which is information that we got third hand. We don't know what she really told Aegon. She could have had a prophecy that was only vaguely related, but they interpreted it that it meant the PtwP.

The information about child that will come from Aerys/Rhaella line came from Ghost of High Heart who had visions that came true, so I am inclining to believe her words, or Barristan's in this matter given that as KG he would have been there.

I don't know how to make this any clearer, but that isn't my point. My point is that there was a prophecy.

So, all of this because you wanted to show to us there was a prophecy... I am sorry, dear, but we have already known that. And again, due to equation AAR=PTWP, we know that it is the same prophecy interpreted in different ways, and that what we have now is variations of original prophecy. You basically want to theorize something that is widely known.

[Aderyn the Sly]

And, again, where is the proof of this claim? SSMs, D&E, WOIAF?

So you think it's a coincidence that their sigil just happens to be an image of a prophecy that would come into play 300 years after the founding their house? I've been reading this series enough to doubt coincidence.

The information about child that will come from Aerys/Rhaella line came from Ghost of High Heart who had visions that came true, so I am inclining to believe her words, or Barristan's in this matter given that as KG he would have been there.

First off, where is it confirmed that the Ghost of High Heart is the same woodswitch that gave that prophecy in court? SSMs, D&E, WOIAF? (see what I did there?) Yes I know she had visions that come true. But Barristan stated that she said something that made Aegon think that the Prince that was Promised would come of their line. We know no specifics. It could have been something they misinterpreted to mean that when it didn't really. The prophecy can be true and the reader wrong.

So, all of this because you wanted to show to us there was a prophecy... I am sorry, dear, but we have already known that. And again, due to equation AAR=PTWP, we know that it is the same prophecy interpreted in different ways, and that what we have now is variations of original prophecy. You basically want to theorize something that is widely known.

WOW. I don't know how to make this any more simple for you if you still don't get what I'm trying to say. And if you don't have anything useful to add, then I'm done.

[geogus]

GRRM said PTwP = AAR???

Didnt know that.

Source?

[Aderyn the Sly]

GRRM said PTwP = AAR???

Didnt know that.

Source?

Tried finding it - came across one that says it was redacted because the person who claimed that GRRM said it came forth to say GRRM didn't and that he made it up. It predated Dance though, not sure when it was edited. So now I don't know... I think there is another one that came out after Dance, because I used to be one of the ones that stated we didn't know that the PtwP and Azor Ahai were the same prophecy.

Edit:

...an explicit connection of Stannis Baratheon to the prophecy of "the prince who was promised", clearly indicating that this prophecy and the prophecy of Azor Ahai reborn deal with the same prophesied savior.

On the "Religions of Game of Thrones" from the HBO show

[Mladen]

So you think it's a coincidence that their sigil just happens to be an image of a prophecy that would come into play 300 years after the founding their house? I've been reading this series enough to doubt coincidence.

Again, I understand that you evade to answer this, but how exactly are Targaryen sigil and PTWP prophecy connected?

First off, where is it confirmed that the Ghost of High Heart is the same woodswitch that gave that prophecy in court? SSMs, D&E, WOIAF? (see what I did there?) Yes I know she had visions that come true. But Barristan stated that she said something that made Aegon think that the Prince that was Promised would come of their line. We know no specifics. It could have been something they misinterpreted to mean that when it didn't really. The prophecy can be true and the reader wrong.

It wasn't. But I recommend rereading ASOIAF. Her sorrow over Summerhall is enough proof...

WOW. I don't know how to make this any more simple for you if you still don't get what I'm trying to say. And if you don't have anything useful to add, then I'm done.

WOW, I actually did the say. I am sorry, but, please, be honest and admit you made logical mistake, and don't embarrass yourself. It's almost pathetic... And I am done arguing with someone who just want slap on the back for long post...

[yolkboy]

GRRM said PTwP = AAR???

Mel says PTwP a few times interchangeably with AA in the books. The video, IIRC, he was saying PTwP = AA - but from the perspective of Mel.

I wouldn't take aa = ptwp as solid fact, but I probably think they're the same thing.

[Aderyn the Sly]

Again, I understand that you evade to answer this, but how exactly are Targaryen sigil and PTWP prophecy connected?

Do you have eyes? It's a three headed dragon. The dragon has three heads is stated as part of the prophecy by Rhaegar in the vision and Maester Aemon. How can you say they aren't connected?

It wasn't. But I recommend rereading ASOIAF. Her sorrow over Summerhall is enough proof...

It's called sarcasm. It's what we use to display annoyance at people who cannot comprehend the point. I also think they're the same, I was throwing your snarky attitude back at you.

I've seen you in plenty of topics on these boards and all you do it nitpick everyone else without adding anything worth mentioning. I'm not making any logical mistakes. I'm expanding on an idea. I'm creating a theory. It's what these boards are for. They're to have fun talking about what we learn in ASOIAF, and predict what we think will come next, that is until people like you come along and just try to put everyone down because it's the internet and there are no consequences for your actions.

[Audrey Arryn]

Do you have eyes? It's a three headed dragon. The dragon has three heads is stated as part of the prophecy by Rhaegar in the vision and Maester Aemon. How can you say they aren't connected?

It's called sarcasm. It's what we use to display annoyance at people who cannot comprehend the point. I also think they're the same, I was throwing your snarky attitude back at you.

I've seen you in plenty of topics on these boards and all you do it nitpick everyone else without adding anything worth mentioning. I'm not making any logical mistakes. I'm expanding on an idea. I'm creating a theory. It's what these boards are for. They're to have fun talking about what we learn in ASOIAF, and predict what we think will come next, that is until people like you come along and just try to put everyone down because it's the internet and there are no consequences for your actions.

Preach sister.

[yolkboy]

I think that the Targaryens prophecy “Dragon has Three Heads” and the Religion of R’hllor prophecy of “Azor Ahai” are two different versions of an older prophecy that could have altered in the retelling and either one or both may have conditions in them that aren't in the real prophecy but are in their interpretation of them.

I would love feedback in this idea.

I think the prophesies having the same root is entirely plausible. I'm definitely in for the AA prophesies all being part of one scrambled jigsaw puzzle that perhaps came from the same source, and has been muddled and distorted by mistranslation over the years. Whether the 3 headed dragon would fit into this common denominator as well, I'm not so sure and i'd have to consider it further.

If you look at prophesies - specifically the red star / stone / dragon ones, they are so so similar, but change from singular to plural, and with other slight differences. My thinking is that there's one correct version and that grrm is trying to confuse us, as prophesy is like an untrained mule.

[butterbumps!]

GRRM confirmed that AA=PtwP, but I don't know if the Hero from the Long Night is the same, nor is the Khal of Khals that will unite the Dothraki under a single Khalasar.

On the "Religions of Game of Thrones" from the HBO show

I don't think Martin confirmed this, actually. This is what's said in that video:

In return, Melisandre sees that the Lord of Light gives him a token [Lightbringer] of his role as the PtwP by ancient prophesy.

In the video, Martin's explicating each of these religions from the perspective of a believer of each of these religions as he goes through them. This isn't confirmation that PtwP= AAR; it shows us that in the theology he's created, R'hllorists believe PtwP= AAR (which we also see in the Jade Compendium Aemon leaves for Jon).

I don't think that the AAR=PtwP question has ever been confirmed. It's something the Red Priests believe.

[Joe Pine]

The readings of Lord Harlaw and Archmaester Marwyn might lead toward prophecies.

'The Book of Lost Books', read by Harlaw and written by Marwyn is mentioned back in AFFC, Marwyn claims to have found three pages from an older book 'Signs and Portents' by a daughter of Aener Targaryen who moved the Targaryens to Dragonstone before the Doom of Valyria as a result of her visions.

Whether Rhaegar saw something along those lines that prompted his change from scholar to knight and toward trying to fulfill what he believed - is speculation.

Maybe there's more dots to be joined and I suspect the books that Sam left on the boat that Marwyn is taking east help that process.