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Birth years of the Targaryens


Rhaenys_Targaryen

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  • 2 weeks later...

Amazing job!I can't even think how long it took you to do it. :cheers:

Also you made a typo of Aegon(son of Rhaegar) being born in 181 when it's in fact 281.

Whoops.. Thanks for catching that!

It should have been 282AC in any case, as he died in 283AC (or so it was said), slightly older than 1 year old :D.. I had only been discussing his conception (which should indeed have been 281, not 181AC).

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  • 3 months later...

This is amazing, Rhaenys! I've been following this from the beginning because I'm obsessed with numbers.



About Aegon III's children, I think that Baelor and Rhaena are named after his sisters Baela and Rhaena. I would love to hear why Elaena is named that way, because Daeron and Elaena seemed strange after reading tPatQ. At least we now have an explanation for Daeron.


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Rhaenys,



the name Alysanne could just be a variation of Alyssa (or vice versa), thus we could assume that Alysanne Targaryen was named after her mother, Alyssa Velaryon, just as Alyssa Targaryen was later named after her grandmother, too.


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I'm also inclined to believe that Jaehaerys II was named after Jaehaerys I, as he should be the Targaryen king Egg would have preferred the most. Prince Daeron would then be both named after Egg's brother as well as after his grandfather (who he most likely considered one of the best Targaryen kings, too).



Aerys II would be named after Aerys I I presume, and not after Aerys Targaryen of Dragonstone.



Aelor and Aelora may be named after both Baelor Breakspear and Aerys - Rhaegel honoring his elder brothers, although that's just a guess.



Baelor the Blessed could actually be named after Baela Targaryen, as she herself was named after Daemon's father Baelon in a similar fashion.



Prince Maelor does not seem to be named after anyone in particular if we don't go back to Maegon of Dragonstone, but it seems clear that Aegon and Helaena did not want to name him after Maegor.



I'm inclined to believe that names like Helaena and Aemond show a certain Hightower influence (Ormund, Garmund etc.) just as Jace and Luke got Velaryon names.



Elaena would be another traditional Targaryen name - I don't think she was named after Helaena.



Daeron II could be named after Daeron I, as the Unworthy most likely both wanted to carry favor with his royal cousin and uncle, as well as allude a closeness to the Iron Throne that was not really there at that point.



Naerys and Daenerys may be both variations of Daenaera Velaryon, or at least hints to that name.



Maekar and Rhaegel could betray a certain Rhoynish influence, although nothing actually backs that up.



I'm inclined to believe that Rhaella is named both Rhae and Daella, and that could be a hint that they were both dead at the time of her birth.



Rhaegar could be named Rhaelle (if she perhaps died at Summerhall) and Maekar (the only other Targaryen with an -k/gar ending).



Aerys and Rhaella tried to name their various children after their uncle, father, and grandfather before settling on Viserys. Rhaella named Dany after the first Daenerys, I assume, perhaps in an attempt to carry favor with Doran. Shaena should be named after her grandmother, Queen Shaera.



Rhaegar could be named after either


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I remembered two details, I don't know if they are helpful for the estimations.



Vaegon, the son of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, became an Archmaester. I think that means he lived "rather" long. I don't know whether this assumption is safe enough to make conclusions concerning the time of his death.



I also read somewhere (on this forum) that Elaena's bastards were born before her marriage to Ossifer Plumm. She had Jeyne and Jon, wanted to marry Alyn, waited for him to come back, gave up and agreed to marry "otherwise". I'm not sure if the way it is written is evidence enough.


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Vaegon may have been the only child of Jaehaerys that was still alive during the Great Council, but I'm pretty sure he did not present a claim (but as an (arch-)maester he could still have been there, with the Hightower delegation.



Elaena's love life seems to go like:



1. Alyn Velaryon, pregnancy, hope of marriage



2. Everyone else. I'd also not surprised if her younger children by Lord Ronnel were actual father by Ser Michael, as he apparently came to court with Mariah, and that could mean that they fell for each other right about the time Daeron married Elaena to Ronnel, or shortly thereafter...


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I'm also inclined to believe that Jaehaerys II was named after Jaehaerys I, as he should be the Targaryen king Egg would have preferred the most. Prince Daeron would then be both named after Egg's brother as well as after his grandfather (who he most likely considered one of the best Targaryen kings, too).

Aerys II would be named after Aerys I I presume, and not after Aerys Targaryen of Dragonstone.

Aelor and Aelora may be named after both Baelor Breakspear and Aerys - Rhaegel honoring his elder brothers, although that's just a guess.

Baelor the Blessed could actually be named after Baela Targaryen, as she herself was named after Daemon's father Baelon in a similar fashion.

Prince Maelor does not seem to be named after anyone in particular if we don't go back to Maegon of Dragonstone, but it seems clear that Aegon and Helaena did not want to name him after Maegor.

I'm inclined to believe that names like Helaena and Aemond show a certain Hightower influence (Ormund, Garmund etc.) just as Jace and Luke got Velaryon names.

Elaena would be another traditional Targaryen name - I don't think she was named after Helaena.

Daeron II could be named after Daeron I, as the Unworthy most likely both wanted to carry favor with his royal cousin and uncle, as well as allude a closeness to the Iron Throne that was not really there at that point.

Naerys and Daenerys may be both variations of Daenaera Velaryon, or at least hints to that name.

Maekar and Rhaegel could betray a certain Rhoynish influence, although nothing actually backs that up.

I'm inclined to believe that Rhaella is named both Rhae and Daella, and that could be a hint that they were both dead at the time of her birth.

Rhaegar could be named Rhaelle (if she perhaps died at Summerhall) and Maekar (the only other Targaryen with an -k/gar ending).

Aerys and Rhaella tried to name their various children after their uncle, father, and grandfather before settling on Viserys. Rhaella named Dany after the first Daenerys, I assume, perhaps in an attempt to carry favor with Doran. Shaena should be named after her grandmother, Queen Shaera.

Rhaegar could be named after either

Most of these reasonigs are the same as mine indeed. Good catch on the Maekar -at ending, I hadn't thought of that one.

Could be that Jaehaerys II was named for Jaehaerys I, true..

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Elaena:



Really? To me it seems that her section gives us her loves in chronological order. She got out, met Alyn, fell in love, got pregnant, he disappeared. A year later she agreed to marry somebody else, and then Aegon chose Ossifer Plumm for her in 176 AC. As I've already said elsewhere this makes the most sense, as Ossifer most likely was practical joke on Elaena, as she was obviously 'fond of older men/living corpses'.


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That is the order I would prefer too, but I thought that the section left the situation a bit vague..



I've tried to find all mentions of Alyn in the World Book, to try and figure out when Alyn's last journey was.. However, he's mentioned in the reign of Daeron I, and then only in Elaena's section..



So when did Alyn exactly disappear? I would say that Alyn left before Elaena discovered she was pregnant, went sailing for about a year (seems that these "great journeys" last at least a year?), after which the news of his disapearance reached Westeros. Elaena waited a year, and then agreed to marry elsewhere..



The only thing I can think as going against the scenario of the twins having been born before Viserys Plumm, is that that would mean that Aegon IV allowed Elaena to wait for a year, and later allowed Elaena an actual choice.... Aegon doesn't really sound like the King who would give everyone a choice, and would agree to wait.. Daeron II sounds more like that, but that would make me wonder why Alyn isn't mentioned anywhere in Aegon's reign.. (though, he isn't mentioned in Baelor's reign, and he should still have been around during that decade).


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Hm. I'd say Alyn Velaryon was the greatest living man at court when he disappeared, which in itself could explain why Aegon IV did not dare to force Elaena into a marriage while she was betrothed to Alyn, and there was still hope that he could/would return. Not to mention that we don't have to assume that Aegon was all that eager (or in a haste) to marry Elaena off.


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Hm. I'd say Alyn Velaryon was the greatest living man at court when he disappeared, which in itself could explain why Aegon IV did not dare to force Elaena into a marriage while she was betrothed to Alyn, and there was still hope that he could/would return. Not to mention that we don't have to assume that Aegon was all that eager (or in a haste) to marry Elaena off.

But it is never stated that they were betrothed...

In fact, "she had hoped to marry him" would sooner suggest that Elaena had been hoping for a (short) betrothal followed by a marriage, but hadn't been betrothed to him yet.

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Well, if they were not betrothed Elaena expecting to marry Alyn eventually was apparently enough to prevent Aegon IV from forcing her into a marriage. The idea that this should be, for some reason, his top objective after ascending the Iron Throne makes little sense anyway.



A reversed order (Ossifer and then Alyn) would make little sense in my opinion. First, Alyn and Elaena would have a great opportunity to meet and interact from the moment Viserys II freed his nieces from the Maidenvault. We know that the Lords of Driftmark were essentially the hereditary Masters of Ships, suggesting that Alyn served in this capacity from Corlys' death until his own disappearance.



I'd not even surprised if Viserys II named Alyn his Hand - he would have worked with him on the Small Council for decades, after all.



And surely whatever romance developed between Alyn and Elaena took some time. He was a rather old man, and unless he was not a life-long womanizer we have little reason to believe that his first thought when he met a fully developed Elaena was to seduce her.



Whereas we should assume that Elaena did not spend time at court after she was married to Lord Ossifer. She was the Lady Dowager Plumm then, and should live at the Plumm castle, ruling the Plumm lands in the name of her unborn child (and later in the name of young Viserys).



Later things seem to suggest that Elaena became an important part of Daeron's court sooner rather than later - and that seems to suggest that Daeron decided to marry her to his Master of Coin to get her back to court shortly after he took over. The best hint for that is that she seems to have been as an envoy in Braavos with Ser Michael before the two married, negotiating with the Iron Bank in her husband's name (Lord Ronnel).


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  • 1 month later...

This is amazing, Rhaenys! I've been following this from the beginning because I'm obsessed with numbers.

About Aegon III's children, I think that Baelor and Rhaena are named after his sisters Baela and Rhaena. I would love to hear why Elaena is named that way, because Daeron and Elaena seemed strange after reading tPatQ. At least we now have an explanation for Daeron.

Thinking some more on the children of Aegon III, and I discovered the following pattern, if you are correct that Baelor was named for Baela, and Rhaena for Rhaena of Pentos:

  • Daeron, named after Daenaera's father (origin name: Velaryon)
  • Baelor, named after Aegon's half-sister (origin name: Targaryen)
  • Daena, named after Daenaera (origin name: Velaryon)
  • Rhaena, named after Aegon's half-sister (origin name: Targaryen)
  • Elaena, whose name, following the pattern, would then have a Velaryon origin?

Of course, both House Targaryen and House Velaryon are of Valyrian descent, so naturally, their naming pattern will overlap, look alike, and such, but it might still be a pattern..

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