Birth years of the Targaryens

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I notice that it says that prince Duncan's year of death is unknown but didn't he died with his father in Summerhall?

Ah, yes, of course :)

Edit: it was in the text, I saw, just not in the summary. Thank you for noticing

Thank you :D

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Fantastic work as always, Rhaenys!

I have just read it... amazing!!!! :thumbsup:

Thank you :D

[Aslerys]

Ah, yes, of course :)

Edit: it was in the text, I saw, just not in the summary. Thank you for noticing

Thank you :D

You're welcome! ^_^ I can only imagine how much time all these timeline threads take! You have a gift! :D

[Hardstone]

From the new App update, Aenys was 35 years old when he died. So he must have been born in 207 AC. Maekar was 5 or so years younger so that puts his birth year around 212 AC.

Jaehaerys and Alysanne had 9 children. Aemon is likely the eldest and Baelon (father of Viserys & Daemon) is stated as their secondborn son.

[QueenOfWhiteWalkers]

Wow

[Kienn]

I can see some of these assumptions compounding errors in ages (for instance for all we know Aegon V's 3 sons could have been triplets - making their 1 year gap assumptions faulty).

Some dates could use more explanation and citations as well, otherwise this is mainly just a list of info on the wiki, without any additional reliability.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I can see some of these assumptions compounding errors in ages (for instance for all we know Aegon V's 3 sons could have been triplets - making their 1 year gap assumptions faulty).

Some dates could use more explanation and citations as well, otherwise this is mainly just a list of info on the wiki, without any additional reliability.

The error marge of one year still needs to be edited in, I'm working on that. I do believe it's better if I edit it in all at once, instead of little by little. As you can imagine by the size of the text, it will take some work. It's on its way though :)

It's highly unlikely that there were triplets anywhere. The twins in the family tree have been specifically mentioned until now, and I can only work with the information I have.

Citations will come.

Where would you like to see more explanation?

If you post where you think it's missing, I can edit it in :)

From the new App update, Aenys was 35 years old when he died. So he must have been born in 207 AC. Maekar was 5 or so years younger so that puts his birth year around 212 AC.

Jaehaerys and Alysanne had 9 children. Aemon is likely the eldest and Baelon (father of Viserys & Daemon) is stated as their secondborn son.

Working on putting that in. Will be placed sometime today I expect :D

[Kienn]

It's highly unlikely that there were triplets anywhere. The twins in the family tree have been specifically mentioned until now, and I can only work with the information I have.

Citations will come.

Where would you like to see more explanation?

If you post where you think it's missing, I can edit it in :)

I only used one example, I'm sure there are dozens of others where an assumption in one place just leads to further and further inaccuracies.

Aegon V could have also had twins-single, or single-twins. The lack of a specification doesn't mean it's impossible, his third son doesn't even have a name yet, does that mean he has no name at all because "up till now everyone has had a name"? No.

All I'm saying is if you want this to have usefulness other than a chronological list that can be found on the wiki - it should be more accurate(when uncertain of a date, you should give a range of dates - which you actually did for Aegon's sons - but you included an unsubstantiated assumption) and give clearer reasonings and quotations when possible.

Overall it is pretty decent.

[Lord Varys]

Is Baelon confirmed as the father of Viserys and Daemon in the App?

[Hardstone]

Yes, in Viserys' entry and the Targaryen page.

Sorry Varys, not Rhaenys' brother. :-)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Is Baelon confirmed as the father of Viserys and Daemon in the App?

Yes, Baelon is the father of Viserys and Daemon. He was Jaehaerys' second born son (Aemon was the firstborn son).

[Lord Varys]

I can live with that. Of course, I can! *jumped out of the window never to be seen again*

Nine children for Jaehaerys and Alysanne is more than I ever expected. And the Ape Prince most certainly is among them. This would enable Baelon to marry a younger sister, I guess, making Viserys and Daemon incest-born Targs, but Aemon most likely did not have a sister old enough to marry. Any hints as to how many sons were among Jaehaerys' children? The lack of another male Targaryen branch during the Dance seems to suggests that does branches either died out (Ape Prince - by the way, he could also have been the sole male descendant of one of Jaehaerys' younger sons, being also a grandson of Jaehaerys), or never existed in the first place. I'd also assume now that Rhaenyra's Arryn-Targaryen mother is the daughter of a daughter of Jaehaerys' who was married into the Arryn family.

[Faydra]

This is astonishing. Nice work!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Information from the app has been edited in.

The error marge, extra explanation and sources will soon follow ;)

I can live with that. Of course, I can! *jumped out of the window never to be seen again*

Nine children for Jaehaerys and Alysanne is more than I ever expected. And the Ape Prince most certainly is among them. This would enable Baelon to marry a younger sister, I guess, making Viserys and Daemon incest-born Targs, but Aemon most likely did not have a sister old enough to marry. Any hints as to how many sons were among Jaehaerys' children? The lack of another male Targaryen branch during the Dance seems to suggests that does branches either died out (Ape Prince - by the way, he could also have been the sole male descendant of one of Jaehaerys' younger sons, being also a grandson of Jaehaerys), or never existed in the first place. I'd also assume now that Rhaenyra's Arryn-Targaryen mother is the daughter of a daughter of Jaehaerys' who was married into the Arryn family.

I guess that the ape princeling being either one of the other sons of Jaehaerys and Alysanne or a grandchild of Jaehaerys and Alysanne would work out perfectly, since the prince would live during the reigns of Jaehaerys and Viserys, and both of them seem kind enough to keep such a person around. Though personally, I'd rather say he was a direct son of Jaehaerys and Alysanne.

Wow

This is astonishing. Nice work!

Thank you both :)

[Artemis]

This is an amazing resource. Thank you! :cheers:

[Prince Daemon Targaryen]

I've always been uncomfortable with the Viserys II-Aegon IV-Daeron II-Prince Baelor age issue.

In his description to Amok, GRRM describes Viserys II as ascending the throne in his fifties.

GRRM: VISERYS II. Came to the throne quite late, when he was in his fifties.

If he were born in 122 AC, he would be at the most 49 in 171 AC when he became king. Since he is yet 7 when the Dance of the Dragons start in early 129, I would propose him to be born in mid-to-late 121 AC so that he is nearer to or 50 when he ascends the throne.

The thing I find so hard to wrap my head around is the fact the Viserys II could become a great-grandfather at merely 48/49. Certainly not impossible but slightly hard to digest in modern times I guess.

There is also the error in the Wiki where it is stated that Daeron ascended the throne in his forties, which clearly cannot be the case. Rhaenys is right in that GRRM just asked Amok to show Daeron in his forties while never implying that his reign started when he was past forty.

GRRM: DAERON II. Daeron the Good. A thoughtful face, pale, dignified, kindly Not a warrior by any means; round-shouldered, with thin legs and a small pot belly. His face has a certain quiet strength, though, and his eyes are clear and full of resolve. In his forties. In his hands is a parchment treaty. Wears his father's elaborate dragon crown.

Brilliant, painstakingly efficient work though Rhaenys Targaryen :bowdown:

[Luddagain]

there is a woman in England a grandma at 27

In the middle ages becoming a grandparent for a boy might typically be 40 assuming marriage at 18/19 and a girl 32 assuming marriage at 15

Remember even 50 yeildrenfirst chars ago grandmothers would tcommonly be just 40, with first kids at 18-19

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I've always been uncomfortable with the Viserys II-Aegon IV-Daeron II-Prince Baelor age issue.

In his description to Amok, GRRM describes Viserys II as ascending the throne in his fifties.

If he were born in 122 AC, he would be at the most 49 in 171 AC when he became king. Since he is yet 7 when the Dance of the Dragons start in early 129, I would propose him to be born in mid-to-late 121 AC so that he is nearer to or 50 when he ascends the throne.

The thing I find so hard to wrap my head around is the fact the Viserys II could become a great-grandfather at merely 48/49. Certainly not impossible but slightly hard to digest in modern times I guess.

There is also the error in the Wiki where it is stated that Daeron ascended the throne in his forties, which clearly cannot be the case. Rhaenys is right in that GRRM just asked Amok to show Daeron in his forties while never implying that his reign started when he was past forty.

Viserys II no longer being in his fifties when he came into his throne, but being close to 50, seems to have been just a small change. Remember, the SSM is true until GRRM decides to change it. Only when it appears in books/novellas, is it 100% certainly canon. This Viserys thing seems to have been one of those changes. Luckily, it is only a small one.

As to Viserys becoming a great-grandfather at the age of 48/49.. After the Dance ended, a great portion of the Targaryen line was gone. Only Viserys, his brother Aegon, and their cousin Jaehaera were left, the others had all died. Aegon had his first son in 142/143AC, 9 or 10 years after the Dance. What the cause for this was, we don't know, but with only two Targaryens left to carry on the line, there must have been a lot of pressure for both boys to marry young, and have heirs as quickly as possible.

Though Aegon's lack of children for so long can be easily explained, it did made it occur that Viserys had to continue the line, to be safe. Which could explain why Viserys had children before Aegon. After that, with Daeron dying young (married, but as of yet without children), and Baelor living for his faith, and not wanting to sleep with his wife, and thus not having any children, it must have been quite obvious to most at court that the Targaryen reign would one day continue through Viserys, and then to his eldest son, and his eldest son, and so on.

That can easily explain why Aegon and Naerys were married young, and had their son so young, making Viserys a grandfather early.

Daeron's marriage to Myriah Martell was to make a peace, severely necessary after Daeron's death in the Dornish Rebellion. Such arranged marriages usually occur at a somewhat younger age, and that a child came forth from such a union early is also not the strangest thing.

Being a great-grandfather at 50 is young for so many generations, but it is not impossible, and with the circumstances, not that strange at all either.

Brilliant, painstakingly efficient work though Rhaenys Targaryen :bowdown:

Thank you :D

Edit: Corrected the wiki on that Daeron thing.. ;)

[Lord Varys]

Viserys II has a very tricky story. Originally he was supposed to be the fourth son of Aegon III, not his younger brother. If I remember the SSM correctly, it was Linda who concluded that this would make little sense insofar as Viserys' children and their ages were concerned. GRRM thus made Viserys into a younger brother of Aegon III in ASoS. Later on, the invention of the detailed history of the Dance of the Dragons finally made Viserys somewhat younger. Viserys the fourth son of Aegon III would have died much younger than Viserys the brother of Aegon III, anyway.

We also don't know who Viserys married and when he came back to court after his disappearance. My guess is that he was somewhat crucial as a figurehead in the rise of Aegon III, but this must not be the case. It's possible that he remained a hostage of the Three Daughters for quite some time, and was forced in an early marriage in the Free Cities, not by the multiple regents of his brother.

But if he returned to Westeros before/about/shortly the end of the Dance, it's very likely that he was forced in an arranged betrothal/marriage almost at once. He and Aegon III were the last male Targaryens alive, the fate of the dynasty rested upon their shoulders, and if it was the case that Jaehaera was a simpleton or barren, Viserys would have to continue the Targaryen line. The same would be true if it was evident that Aegon III was completely unwilling to consummate his arranged marriage. He was forced into a marriage with a cousin whose father had murdered his mother before his eyes (and abused him later on, no doubt).

[Prince Daemon Targaryen]

Thank you for the clarifications Rhaenys Targaryen, Lord Varys and Luddagain.