About prophecies ...

[Jo cool]

One of the (many) things that stand out in the ASoIaF masterpiece is the subtle blend of pragmatic / political narratives and actual fantasy elements (magic, dragons, etc.), with the latter gaining ground as the story unfolds.

And one of the reasons I picked up the novels in the first place was the apparent absence of a super recurrent (overused IMHO) fantasy pattern : prophecy(ies), chosen one(s), mystical weapon(s), etc.

Whilst I'm totally hooked on the novels (and can't wait for the next one like everyone else), I admit I have mixed feelings about the AAR storyline for example. These plots definitely produce exciting discussions and countless theories on this very forum but I'm concerned about them more or less stealing the show in the closing books. Of course prophecies may come to pass in an unexpected manner but I sure don't want ASoIaF to end like a would-be LOTR surrogate (don't get me wrong, I enjoy Tolkien's work very much), for fear of losing the moral/political/religious complexity I've come to love in the books (to the profit of something more "orthodox").

Anyway, I would be happy to hear (in fact read) your opinion about this.

PS: I might be overreacting ;) Too impatient perhaps.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

While yes his novels do possess a large amount of realism and trope breakers, remember it is a fantasy novel so it will have tropes in it

[Mladen]

Hello, Jo cool. Welcome to the forum :cheers:

You have to understand that ASOIAF belongs to fantasy genre, but has few twists of its own. The two parallel worlds - political and mythological, are not separated, they merely supplement and strongly influence each other. Dragons, as part of fantasy, are powerful weapon in the Game, while Game itself has impacted, or will impact the War against the Others. I am not one of those that believe that these 2 worlds are separated. Simply, Game and Song will cohesively unite in one extremely well-built story.

[Jo cool]

Hello, Jo cool. Welcome to the forum :cheers:

Thank you for your warm welcome :).

You have to understand that ASOIAF belongs to fantasy genre.

Don't worry I do understand it is a fantasy book, a genre I've always been attracted to. Your accurate description of the Game and Song being (brilliantly) influenced by one another does it for me. My concern is not about dragons, blood magic, etc., but more about the Prophecy pattern, whose ineluctability impoverished many otherwise enjoyable books.

I'm just anxious to learn how GRRM will extricate himself from this without falling for too obvious tropes. I DO trust him though, the ASOIAF books being the most refreshing novels I've ever read.

[Mladen]

Don't worry I do understand it is a fantasy book, a genre I've always been attracted to. Your accurate description of the Game and Song being (brilliantly) influenced by one another does it for me. My concern is not about dragons, blood magic, etc., but more about the Prophecy pattern, whose ineluctability impoverished many otherwise enjoyable books.

I'm just anxious to learn how GRRM will extricate himself from this without falling for too obvious tropes. I DO trust him though, the ASOIAF books being the most refreshing novels I've ever read.

Prophecy pattern is something that is heavily discussed here on the boards. IMO, all that is prophesied will occur, but the interpretations of those prophecies are something we should take with grain of salt. For instance, Azor Ahai shall be reborn in midst of smoke and salt. And then you remember Dany coming out of fire (FYI, Targaryens are not immune to fire). The scene has this epic proportion. But then, 4 books later, we have Jon visiting ice cells in the Wall where they keep meat, and there you have both salt and meat... Even in TV show, if you watch, it's hinted that hams have something to do with AAR (Renly asking Stannis if he is a ham, that he is born in midst of smoke and salt). Then of course, there are many other small things. Melisandre's version of Renly beating Stannis at Blackwater actually occurred when Garlan impersonated Renly. So, while the prophecies can change the Game (look at Cersei and her hatred for Tyrion), for those oblivious of them, they mean nothing...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Welcome to the forums.

This is just my personal opinion. I am convinced that the AAR, PTWP and all the other prophecies will be fulfilled in a very Nostradamian manner. Read: They are imprecise enough to be fitted on pretty much anything and the characters in the book will interpret them according to their personal beliefs. As will the readers.

[Dornish Whine]

Welcome to the fray.

Whilst I'm totally hooked on the novels (and can't wait for the next one like everyone else), I admit I have mixed feelings about the AAR storyline for example. These plots definitely produce exciting discussions and countless theories on this very forum but I'm concerned about them more or less stealing the show in the closing books. Of course prophecies may come to pass in an unexpected manner but I sure don't want ASoIaF to end like a would-be LOTR surrogate (don't get me wrong, I enjoy Tolkien's work very much), for fear of losing the moral/political/religious complexity I've come to love in the books (to the profit of something more "orthodox").

One thing that gives me confidence that the 'political' aspects of ASOIAF will not be eclipsed by the 'fantasy hero' tropes is Martin's comments about LOTR in the following interview. (spoiler contains relevant response).

http://observationde...rview-886117845

Jon Snow as Lord Commander. Dany as Queen, struggling with rule. So many books don't do that. There is a sense when you're writing something in high fantasy, you're in a dialogue with all the other high fantasy writers that have written. And there is always this presumption that if you are a good man, you will be a good king. [Like] Tolkien — in Return of the King, Aragorn comes back and becomes king, and then [we read that] "he ruled wisely for three hundred years." Okay, fine. It is easy to write that sentence, “He ruled wisely”.

What does that mean, he ruled wisely? What were his tax policies? What did he do when two lords were making war on each other? Or barbarians were coming in from the North? What was his immigration policy? What about equal rights for Orcs? I mean did he just pursue a genocidal policy, "Let’s kill all these fucking Orcs who are still left over"? Or did he try to redeem them? You never actually see the nitty-gritty of ruling.

I guess there is an element of fantasy readers that don't want to see that. I find that fascinating.

TLDR: Basically he is saying that the political aspects are really important to him and are what he really wanted to write about. So if Jon, or Dany, or whoever swoops in and saves the day in a magical sort of way... I think Martin will want to write about what happens to the kingdom the next day... or the day after.. or the day after that.

[Jo cool]

Thank you all for your welcome.

And thanks Dornish Whine for the great link (yes I did read it all). I have to say it comes as a relief and confirmation that George won't take the easy way out on this one.

[Dornish Whine]

And thanks Dornish Whine for the great link (yes I did read it all). I have to say it comes as a relief and confirmation that George won't take the easy way out on this one.

No problem. That particular quote has always stuck out in my mind as I think it defines what sets Martin (or asoiaf) apart from other fantasy authors (or sagas).