The Bloody Cloak

[yolkboy]

I've just seen an excellent piece about the Hound's cloak by Lady Gwynhyfvar over at the Sansa ptp thread. Seems there's more than a few clues Sansa might still have it.

Read it here.

[Iona]

As bad as KL was, it was safer than going with the Hound at that time. At least in KL Sansa has value as a hostage. Cersei, Tyrion and later Tywin would not allow her to die. Tywin and Tyrion even stopped the physical abuse. Cersei is just too stupid to have stopped her psycho son from beating his valuable hostage.

And remember that at this point there was still the possibility of Stannis winning the battle, so Sansa could have also hoped that all the Lannisters will be put to the sword. Which of these options looks better - Stannis' men catching her when she's fleeing the city with Joffrey's sworn shield, or Stannis' men finding her in the castle and seeing her as a Lannister hostage. I bet even a 13 year old girl sees the difference. And even if Stannis still kept her as a hostage, it cannot be that bad comparing to being Joffrey's playtoy.

[Consigliere]

The cloak is highly significant as a symbol of protection, which has been frequently discussed in the PtP threads. As for the whereabouts of the actual cloak, I'm going to toss my favorite theory out there.

In AGoT Sansa dyes her white gown black to cover the stains left by the blood orange Arya hurled at her, as a symbol of royal mourning. In ASoS, as Sansa flees KL, she dons a deep green cloak with a large hood in the castle godswood to cover the brightness of the pearls on her dress. I believe she has dyed Sandor's white cloak to cover the blood stains (as we know she has done before with the dress) and taken it with her to her new life. The fact that she uses it to shield herself is so symbolically perfect that in my mind there is no doubt the two cloaks are one and the same.

Lady Gwyn, my first post on this thread says that I think Sansa took the cloak with her when she fled KL. I believe that the cloak has sentimental value to Sansa and she would not just leave it behind. However, tbh, I never considered the "deep green cloak with a large hood" to be Sandor's white cloak dyed. Kudos ma'am. :bowdown: Kudos.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Lady Gwyn, my first post on this thread says that I think Sansa took the cloak with her when she fled KL. I believe that the cloak has sentimental value to Sansa and she would not just leave it behind. However, tbh, I never considered the "deep green cloak with a large hood" to be Sandor's white cloak dyed. Kudos ma'am. :bowdown: Kudos.

Aww, thanks, TB! :)

I actually expanded on this idea quite a bit, along with Milady of York, in a post on the Pawn to Player thread. yolkboy linked it above if you're interested.

(for which-- thanks yolkboy :))

[Le Cygne]

Subsequent events don't unfold the same way under different circumstances. The laws of physics, Jim.

Arya meant far less to him and he kept her safe, even though he was feeling horrible about himself for leaving Sansa there at the mercy of the Lannisters. He finally gave up when he heard what they did to Sansa.

She wishes she'd gone with him, he wishes he'd taken her with him, that's a story. And look at all the drama it created in the narrative.

Lady Gwynhyfvar, nice theory (although I don't agree).

I think at a certain point the actual cloak isn't even needed, just what it represents to her. Just like what Needle represents to Arya.

[Consigliere]

Aww, thanks, TB! :)

I actually expanded on this idea quite a bit, along with Milady of York, in a post on the Pawn to Player thread. yolkboy linked it above if you're interested.

(for which-- thanks yolkboy :))

Just read it and it is a great post. I was tentative previously but now I am convinced. I would not even consider this a crackpot, instead this is extemely, extremely plausible. Sansa has the cloak and that's that as far as I'm concerned. Just wish I had the time to go through the PtP threads in it's entirety. There is alot of great info in there from the bits and pieces I have read. Thanks Lady Gwyn. :)

[Lummel]

I think it is highly unlikely that Sansa's green cloak is Sandor's white cloak - who is going to dye a blood stained white cloak for Sansa and not report it? Sansa has no household of her own. When she is married to Tyrion the servants are a cook provided courtesy of Varys and certainly an informant and Shae. Neither has any reason to be loyal to Sansa and keep something so questionable secret. I'm presuming that she might be able to get the opportunity to shorten the cloak on her own, but getting the blood out and dying it isn't the kind of task she can do on her own. Does she even have money of her own to pay somebody to do it for her considering that she is effectively a prisoner the whole time?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I think it is highly unlikely that Sansa's green cloak is Sandor's white cloak - who is going to dye a blood stained white cloak for Sansa and not report it? Sansa has no household of her own. When she is married to Tyrion the servants are a cook provided courtesy of Varys and certainly an informant and Shae. Neither has any reason to be loyal to Sansa and keep something so questionable secret. I'm presuming that she might be able to get the opportunity to shorten the cloak on her own, but getting the blood out and dying it isn't the kind of task she can do on her own. Does she even have money of her own to pay somebody to do it for her considering that she is effectively a prisoner the whole time?

In the expanded discussion on PtP we speculated that she was able to cloak (;)) her remaking of the garment in the activity surrounding a whole new wardrobe being ordered by Cersei and her needlework dates with the Tyrell women. I don't have much of a problem with her washing the cloak herself and then finding a way to dye it or have it dyed either in the bustle of the new wardrobe being made up or by using the opportunity her friendship with the Tyrells would present. While it does involve a slight suspension of belief, I don't think it's entirely unlikely.

We have situations in the series with similarly problematic logistics that are accepted at face value (the men of the NW improbably having money for whores in Mole's Town springs right to mind, since it comes up on SQ a lot) simply because we accept that the author doesn't really get down in the weeds of details that much.

[brashcandy]

I think it is highly unlikely that Sansa's green cloak is Sandor's white cloak - who is going to dye a blood stained white cloak for Sansa and not report it? Sansa has no household of her own. When she is married to Tyrion the servants are a cook provided courtesy of Varys and certainly an informant and Shae. Neither has any reason to be loyal to Sansa and keep something so questionable secret. I'm presuming that she might be able to get the opportunity to shorten the cloak on her own, but getting the blood out and dying it isn't the kind of task she can do on her own. Does she even have money of her own to pay somebody to do it for her considering that she is effectively a prisoner the whole time?

It's a good question Lummel, and I think the answer may be found in the incident that happens a couple chapters earlier when Sansa gets her first period, and in a panic decides to burn the evidence because she doesn't want to be forced to bear Joff's children:

Snatching up her knife, Sansa hacked at the sheet, cutting out the stain. If they ask me about the hole, what will I say? Tears ran down her face. She pulled the torn sheet from the bed, and the stained blanket as well. I’ll have to burn them. She balled up the evidence, stuffed it in the fireplace, drenched it in oil from her bedside lamp, and lit it afire. Then she realized that the blood had soaked through the sheet into the featherbed, so she bundled that up as well, but it was big and cumbersome, hard to move. Sansa could get only half of it into the fire. She was on her knees, struggling to shove the mattress into the flames as thick grey smoke eddied around her and filled the room, when the door burst open and she heard her maid gasp.

Sansa could have claimed that the cloak was one of the things she burnt at that point, thereby allaying suspicion of the true source. A girl who has a history of dyeing clothes, not to mention burning and bloodying others, might not be looked at too closely when she produces a cloak bearing similar distress.

Furthermore, we're talking about a period of time before the Tyrion marriage, when Sansa enjoys the most freedom she's had since her father's death. She's able to partake in activities with Margaery etc, so I guess another possibility is that she could have used a member of the Tyrells' household.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

snip

Wow. Because I think the connection of burned and bloody fabric adds so much to the theory, I've taken the liberty of importing this exchange to the PtP discussion.

I don't discount the issues raised by Lummel... far from it, I knew that to be a weak spot. Your observation about the burned and bloodied sheets just brings the connections to a whole new level :cheers:

[Lummel]

No, she'd still have a man's blood stained white cloak. It's not a garment that looks like a sheet, it's not a garment that she could pass off as her's - its going to be too big, it's still going to have a blood stain - not something she could easily wash out, unless perhaps she washed and worked at it with soap immediately which we know she didn't.

I don't see how she can pass that off as a new item or recently acquired piece of clothing - 'oh, look, I've ordered a second hand tall man's white cloak, silly me!'. OK maybe a Tyrell servant would wash it and dye it for her - but without telling a senior person in the Tyrell household? And who else apart from the kingsguard wear white cloaks - questions would be asked.

I don't see how the burning helps at all. Nobody knew that she had the cloak, so she can hardly claim it was one she burnt and this is a different blood stained white cloak left by a different kingsguard. A burn mark doesn't look like a blood stain either.

[brashcandy]

@Lummel,

On the night of the Blackwater, Sandor's cloak is torn, bloodied and burnt, hence it may not even be quite recognizable to the untrained eye that this is a KG cloak. My point on highlighting the passage from the menarche chapter is to illustrate that Sansa having a garment in this kind of distressed state might not be so extraordinary, given the state of her own bedding when she set fire to it. I consider it a reasonable explanation that she could have given to her maids, but YMMV. I could be wrong, but Sandor's cloak is also different from the traditional silk that the other KG members wear isn't it? Again, if so, it could be another reason why it's not detected, and Sansa could have altered it before sending it to be dyed.

[Milady of York]

No, she'd still have a man's blood stained white cloak. It's not a garment that looks like a sheet, it's not a garment that she could pass off as her's - its going to be too big, it's still going to have a blood stain - not something she could easily wash out, unless perhaps she washed and worked at it with soap immediately which we know she didn't.

I don't see how she can pass that off as a new item or recently acquired piece of clothing - 'oh, look, I've ordered a second hand tall man's white cloak, silly me!'. OK maybe a Tyrell servant would wash it and dye it for her - but without telling a senior person in the Tyrell household? And who else apart from the kingsguard wear white cloaks - questions would be asked.

I don't see how the burning helps at all. Nobody knew that she had the cloak, so she can hardly claim it was one she burnt and this is a different blood stained white cloak left by a different kingsguard. A burn mark doesn't look like a blood stain either.

Kingsguard cloaks don't wear distinctives, though. It's not like Sandor's sigil was embroidered on it or if there was something that would make it recognisable as a Kingsguard cloak for sure to anyone who looked at it, and it wasn't made of finer fabrics like the other royal bodyguards', either. Take a look at Medieval cloaks, and you see that they are basically just large square pieces of fabric with trimming and cords or buttons, or brooches, for keeping them wrapped around the shoulders. Sandor's cloaks were always of simple roughspun fabric, unadorned, so on glance the bloody cloak will look like just a piece of stained woollen fabric, and ripped at that. Sandor ripped a piece of it for bandages, so it wasn't complete, plus take the cords or buttons off and it doesn't look like a cloak anymore. Sansa could have claimed it was a ruined piece of cloth belonging to her, which she could then sew and embroider and dye to make herself a new one.

On the other hand, are we sure that they know how many clothes Sansa has? Do they know every single item she has that goes unaccounted for? If so, then it's curious that they haven't found the white cloak beneath her summer silks, which would be expected if her handmaidens were taking a look in her chests and reporting to the Queen what is in there. How come no one has found it? A large piece of white woollen cloth with smoke and blood stains isn't that difficult to pass on as a ruined piece of cloth she owned.

[Lost Melnibonean]

In the expanded discussion on PtP we speculated that she was able to cloak (;)) her remaking of the garment in the activity surrounding a whole new wardrobe being ordered by Cersei and her needlework dates with the Tyrell women. I don't have much of a problem with her washing the cloak herself and then finding a way to dye it or have it dyed either in the bustle of the new wardrobe being made up or by using the opportunity her friendship with the Tyrells would present. While it does involve a slight suspension of belief, I don't think it's entirely unlikely.

We have situations in the series with similarly problematic logistics that are accepted at face value (the men of the NW improbably having money for whores in Mole's Town springs right to mind, since it comes up on SQ a lot) simply because we accept that the author doesn't really get down in the weeds of details that much.

I'm not disputing the green cloak theory, I like it. But the NW men having money or at least barter is not unbelievable considering convicts are able to raise and spend in prison.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I'm not disputing the green cloak theory, I like it. But the NW men having money or at least barter is not unbelievable considering convicts are able to raise and spend in prison.

:lol: good point, not the best analogy ;)

I was stretching to find a situation where people you don't expect to have money did something that required money... I'm sure better examples could be found!

[Lost Melnibonean]

The best example of Martin not seeing the trees for the forest is Sandor's 30k gold. You'd need like two pack mules and a small retinue of hedge knights to hump that around the Riverlands. Martin has Sandor wandering around the Riverlands until the BWB forages him.

[Dany Girl]

I really like the idea of Sansa remaking Sandor's cape into her escape cape. He *tried* to take her from KL, and in the end she takes a piece of him with her when she does escape.

Also, she dyed her dress before so I don't think too many people would look too closely if she asked for more fabric dye. She's known as an excellent needle worker so hemming and creating a hood wouldn't be too difficult for her.

I'm pretty sold here, and might end up disappointed if this isn't true :)

[Michelle Stark]

Subsequent events don't unfold the same way under different circumstances. The laws of physics, Jim.

Arya meant far less to him and he kept her safe, even though he was feeling horrible about himself for leaving Sansa there at the mercy of the Lannisters. He finally gave up when he heard what they did to Sansa.

She wishes she'd gone with him, he wishes he'd taken her with him, that's a story. And look at all the drama it created in the narrative.

Lady Gwynhyfvar, nice theory.

I think at a certain point the actual cloak isn't even needed, just what it represents to her. Just like what Needle represents to Arya.

i agree, he kept Arya safe even after she no longer had monetary value to him, so he certainly would have kept Sansa safe. I also believe that if Sansa had fled King's Landing with him, his actions would have been more cautious. Everyone in the Seven Kingdoms thought Arya was dead, so he didn't have to hide his movements with her. However, if he had Sansa with him, he would have needed to be more prudent about where he went and what he did, because just about everyone in the kingdom would have been looking for her. I don't think it would have necessarily ended in disaster if Sansa left with the Hound; it could have been a surprisingly different outcome because his actions would not have been the same.

[Le Cygne]

I don't think it would have necessarily ended in disaster if Sansa left with the Hound; it could have been a surprisingly different outcome because his actions would not have been the same.

That's true. They both think so positively about each other, too, seems like they just want a do over! No fire this time.

[Iona]

Also, she dyed her dress before so I don't think too many people would look too closely if she asked for more fabric dye. She's known as an excellent needle worker so hemming and creating a hood wouldn't be too difficult for her.

I agree with this. I never thought she might need to buy the dye. I imagine she could just tell one of her handmaids to bring her some green dye and a couple of pails of water and then tell the handmaids they are not needed for a couple of hours or send them to attend some other task.