The Big Bear in the room

[TheZone]

you are stating this like the information actually harmed her. If you forget, it was his information that almost got her killed, yet it was also HE WHO SAVED HER. I really think you just don't like the guy so you are trying to defame him lol. which is ok, but just say you are doing that

IF HE DID NOT SEND THE INFO, SHE WOULD NOT NEED SAVING. If Mel did this to Stannis, everyone would hate her, and want her dead, but because this happened to Dany, its perfectly fine ! :ack:

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

I think getting murdered or hated and never want to be seen again is worse...

Clearly you have never been friend-zoned. :) (I joke.)

[OberynBlackfyre]

IF HE DID NOT SEND THE INFO, SHE WOULD NOT NEED SAVING. If Mel did this to Stannis, everyone would hate her, and want her dead, but because this happened to Dany, its perfectly fine ! :ack:

not necessarily. These books aren't about clear good or clear bad. I can admit that Jorah did do some things that were against Dany, betraying her. Thats bad. However he also provided her with great advice and saved her life on a couple of occasions. also risked his life for her more than once. A couple of notes to the 7 Kingdoms, in which no one of great importance really even seemed to care about her, really did not harm her as much as Jorah has HELPED her. Plus, when she did find out, she punished him. so therefore he has attoned for his wrong deeds, and in the grass, she now understands that she may not WANT him, but she NEEDS him. which is true

[A wilding]

... so therefore he has attoned for his wrong deeds, ...

Atoned yes, but he still refused to acknowledge their wrongness. He still thought he had the right to make decisions for her and to withhold information from her.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Clearly you have never been friend-zoned. :) (I joke.)

LOL, even girls do get friendzoned, too, believe it or not.

I like both Dany and Jorah, don't want them romantically together, and Seven Save my pollyanna ass, but I hope they work their friendship and all it's zones out, LOL

I'm also wondering....if the report Jorah made from Quarth was just that........Drogo and the baby died, do we even know? I just remember him admitting the word Quarth to her, and well, Dany was then fighting her fire and blood urges. Do we even know what info he sent? I think it might just have been that, and even with baby dragons, Jorah was still dreaming of tramping through Essos with her forever, and if the dragons made it to a decent size, maybe a return to Westeros. Even though he did direct her toward the Unsullied, I'm still not sure he wasn't nursing his forever fantasies. I think, yes....he was trying to get her to Westeros with strength, but he'd have been ALMOST as good just roaming the world with her and 10,000 Unsullied.

[aceluby]

I am serious now, can anyone give one plausible scenario in which Dany does not end up with Vic for a little bit?

She and her dragon take over the Khalasar through might, unite the Dothraki, move on to retake Mereen, and then when Vic arrives she has no need for Vic since she has her dragons & army, obliterates him as her enemy, and then moves on to Westeros.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Atoned yes, but he still refused to acknowledge their wrongness. He still thought he had the right to make decisions for her and to withhold information from her.

how did he refuse to acknowledge them? he apologized when he found out. He begged as well. I think he knew what he did was wrong, even his thinking that he could somehow look DOWN on her, when she was supposed to be his queen.

[TheZone]

not necessarily. These books aren't about clear good or clear bad. I can admit that Jorah did do some things that were against Dany, betraying her. Thats bad. However he also provided her with great advice and saved her life on a couple of occasions. also risked his life for her more than once. A couple of notes to the 7 Kingdoms, in which no one of great importance really even seemed to care about her, really did not harm her as much as Jorah has HELPED her. Plus, when she did find out, she punished him. so therefore he has attoned for his wrong deeds, and in the grass, she now understands that she may not WANT him, but she NEEDS him. which is true

You are totally missing my point, I do not disagree that she needs him. It however will be now extremely hard to trust him for one she also cannot be sure that he wont do it again. His punishment was for his life, and she gave him that.

[OberynBlackfyre]

You are totally missing my point, I do not disagree that she needs him. It however will be now extremely hard to trust him for one she also cannot be sure that he wont do it again. His punishment was for his life, and she gave him that.

mmmmm I think she even realizes NOW that she should not have sent him away, that she could trust him now. It was his "old self" lets call it, that betrayed her. Not the man who ended up loving her.

[TheZone]

how did he refuse to acknowledge them? he apologized when he found out. He begged as well. I think he knew what he did was wrong, even his thinking that he could somehow look DOWN on her, when she was supposed to be his queen.

Oh yes he begged for her forgiveness once she found out! Yes just like Shae ?

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

He admits he desires Sansa... That is pedophile in my book...

Oh right, I keep forgetting everybody's younger in the book. Still, it's worth pointing out that:

A. He didn't touch her, and

B. In this quasi-medieval setting, the age of consent is obviously a lot lower, so while Tyrion would be creepy in real life, I'm not sure the paedo tag applies.

That's not to say that you're wrong, by the way. These books are full of things which are normal to the character/s but unsettling for the reader. Do we judge them by their standards or ours? Or something in between?

[TheZone]

mmmmm I think she even realizes NOW that she should not have sent him away, that she could trust him now. It was his "old self" lets call it, that betrayed her. Not the man who ended up loving her.

Wow ! Wow ! Wow! Tywin was not evil for killing Aegon and Rhaenerys, that was his old self.

[Mad Monkey]

You are totally missing my point, I do not disagree that she needs him. It however will be now extremely hard to trust him for one she also cannot be sure that he wont do it again. His punishment was for his life, and she gave him that.

She could always commute his sentence to parole or community sentence like that.

Oh yes he begged for her forgiveness once she found out! Yes just like Shae ?

Yeah, just like Shae. I mean, she could have changed a lot in the 29 hours since her betrayal. Tyrion didn't even try to listen to her!

Wow ! Wow ! Wow! Tywin was not evil for killing Aegon and Rhaenerys, that was his old self.

Maybe he does regret it. It could have been self-loathing that motivated him into goading Tyrion into shooting him. "Those poor sweet babes... Only death shall wash out my guilt."

[Mladen]

Oh right, I keep forgetting everybody's younger in the book. Still, it's worth pointing out that:

A. He didn't touch her, and

B. In this quasi-medieval setting, the age of consent is obviously a lot lower, so while Tyrion would be creepy in real life, I'm not sure the paedo tag applies.

That's not to say that you're wrong, by the way. These books are full of things which are normal to the character/s but unsettling for the reader. Do we judge them by their standards or ours? Or something in between?

It's even worse on TV show. TV Sansa has 14, while Tyrion looks late 30ies...

I judge this by my contemporary moral standings... These books are written for modern audience and modern audience decides what's good and bad for them in the setting they are given.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Wow ! Wow ! Wow! Tywin was not evil for killing Aegon and Rhaenerys, that was his old self.

now you're trying to make apples look like oranges. We are talking about one persons actions effecting another persons being. I do see how Dany will be leary of trusting Jorah for the time being, but I think she already realizes that he was a much greater asset than he ever was a threat. However, if you refuse to see that he was good, and in the end helped her more than hindered her, then to each their own.

[TheZone]

now you're trying to make apples look like oranges. We are talking about one persons actions effecting another persons being. I do see how Dany will be leary of trusting Jorah for the time being, but I think she already realizes that he was a much greater asset than he ever was a threat. However, if you refuse to see that he was good, and in the end helped her more than hindered her, then to each their own.

Jesus Christ I said it at least 5 times already. She does need him, but the trust is gone, it not that easy to get over such a major betrayal. Its actually quite understandable why she would have problems in trusting him again.

[Luthien Targaryen]

Sorry, i don't agree. Yeah, i'll admit that Jorah is something of a born loser, he has terrible luck with women, the survival instinct of a lemming and none of Littlefinger's style, charm or brains, but i can't help rooting for the guy.

You might not like it but the way i see it, he was spying on Daenerys when he met her and continued to spy on her until he fell, rather embarassingly, for her. He saved her life in the market place in Vaes Dothrak, didn't he? He saved her life on other occasions since, like when her Khalessar broke up on Drogo's death. You could argue that as a loyal servant, or at least a servant keen to get back into the royal good books, he betrayed Robert Baratheon by supporting and shielding Dany.

Of course Dany is upset, she's young and impressionable, and he should never have kissed her (the great div! Don't you know the first rule of meadeval-esque fantasy? Don't snog the queen!), i'm prepared to forgive her that. But i think she aught to take him back, if she ever wants to retake Westeros she will need all the Westerosi she can get on her side, and some people would be glad of a love sick northerner on the team.

I'd like them to get together as a couple, but i recognise it's unlikely because she is so utterly not her type. I think maybe Brienne instead?

Yeah, i do have a big girlie crush on Iain Glen, it's the voice.... But i liked Jorah anyway.

[Old God]

I don't really like Jorah, to many issues... I think he's just trying to live the life he had with Lynesse Hightower through Dany. Jorah do your awesome dad a favour and take the black.

[Mayura]

Well, I am not really willing to get into the "OMG he is whatever and she is whatever, he is a peado!" debate, but I think readers shouldn't forget that this world of Ice and Fire hasn't been meant to reflect our own. We should keep in mind that this world is an imaginary one loosely based on medieval europe and that, in the world portrayed in the books, grown men are regularly being wed to younger girls and it's not viewed as a problem for them to consummated the union. Drogo consummated the wedding with young Dany, Joffrey, a boy of 13 was wed but nobody seems to think Marg was a pedo when she wed a 13 year old boy, Marg then wed Tommen (who is like, what, 9 IIRC and she's the double of his age? And, strange stuff, nobody thinks she is a pedo?), Tyrion was married to 13 year old Sansa, The Hound wanted more than a song from Sansa, LF kissed young Sansa, Gendry seemed to quite like Arya although he is older as well, Rhaegar had sex with younger Lyanna, super older Jon Arryn wed younger Lysa Tully,...

So, in a other words: this world isn't ours and these men who are attracted by young women who are "flowered" and thus have the body of a woman are not pedophiles by Westerosi standards and thus we shouldn't assume they are. Readers just need to accept it's a different world in which there is no such thing as an age barrier for love or desire. And no, I am not saying I think the same rule should apply to our "real world", I am just saying that we should remember it's a work of fiction in which age actually doesn't matter that much as far as relationships are concerned, as long as the woman is "flowered", it seems to be acceptable to consummate the union, and hence to have sexual relationships.

That being said, I think Jorah was conflicted but we can definitly see that he was fully a Dragon Queen Man by the time his "mission" was revealed to Dany. He protected her, he gave her good advice. And I think they're meant to be reunited and they're meant to be friends again. Not lover, friends.

By the way, I think that Dany is not the last girl to enjoy physical contact for the sake of physical contact and that the only reason she doesn't give Jorah what he wants is because she finds him unattractive. She seems to have a certain affection for him (her thoughts about "her bear" are sometimes quite confusing to me, sometimes it seems like she likes him more than like a friend/protector) but she doesn't find him attractive with his "badling head" and "hairy torso" and so on. But I do think that, would Jorah be attractive or would Dany find him attractive, it is not his age that would put her off.

By the way, on a related topic, what age is Daario Naharis? For all we know, he could well be 40 as well and having relationships with Dany.

[Mladen]

IF HE DID NOT SEND THE INFO, SHE WOULD NOT NEED SAVING. If Mel did this to Stannis, everyone would hate her, and want her dead, but because this happened to Dany, its perfectly fine ! :ack:

I am sorry, but I don't understand this argument... Why would we look positively on Jorah more than Mel (btw, burning people and children is way worse than anything Jorah did) in co-relation with Dany?