Is Robb's will void upon the reappearance of Rickon/Bran

[Winter King]

Perhaps Jon would be seen as more of a regent, as both Bran and Rickon are a little young to rule at the moment, particularly in such trying times.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I'm giving my opinion. There is nothing not to understand here. :)

The laws of succession are pretty clear,

Why does it matter if he looks like a Stark, the right matters. He is a Targ now, and has no right to the seat of House Stark.

I think you're conveniently forgetting that ALL the current Starks - Jon included - are Starks through the Stark woman who had a bastard child with some "man". Mothers are far more important than you are giving them credit for. Also, Jon may be preferred simply because R+L=J isn't known in the north and they will just think he is Ned's son. In that case, it is completely understandable that the northern lords would prefer and enforce a man grown with battle and governing experience to Rickon, Sansa Lannister or Arya Bolton. I am assuming Bran will not be seen again.

Let's remember to keep the perspective of the characters in mind, not what we think should be.

[Ahai I'm Jon Snow]

Don't worry OP, this won't be a problem because Rickon and Sansa will die horribly shocking betrayals/deaths.

[Ahai I'm Jon Snow]

I think you're conveniently forgetting that ALL the current Starks - Jon included - are Starks through the Stark woman who had a bastard child with some "man:. Mothers are far more important than you are giving them credit for. Also, Jon may be preferred simply because R+L=J isn't known in the north and they will just think he is Ned's son. In that case, it is completely understandable that the northern lords would prefer and enforce a man grown with battle and governing experience to Rickon, Sansa Lannister or Arya Bolton. I am assuming Bran will not be seen again.

Let's remember to keep the perspective of the characters in mind, not what we think should be.

Then there's this.

The North is in chaos right now. They don't care about details they have stuff to do and a limited amount of time, energy, resources etc. not to do what's best for them and the realm.

And I believe Robb's letter makes Jon a Stark in addition to being his heir, in which case Sansa and Rickon follow him in the line of succession anyway.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

And I believe Robb's letter makes Jon a Stark in addition to being his heir, in which case Sansa and Rickon follow him in the line of succession anyway.

I actually think this is debatable and WILL be debatable in the story based on the cagey responses Martin gives when asked for clarity on the nature of succession.

[Small Bucket]

You also have to ask legal to who?

The Iron Throne won't recognize the will because, to them, Robb had nothing to will. He was a rebel and he'll never ever be any good.

In terms of legality, whether or not someone can be legitimized after the fact is entirely a matter of opinion.

Henry VIII had two legitimate daughters, both of whom were bastardized, legitimized, re-bastardized and then re-legitimized, depending on who's army happened to be in London at the time.

I'm sure whoever eventually gets power can find scores of Maesters and Septons to swear up and down that [insert your opinion] is the law of the land.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

You also have to ask legal to who?

The Iron Throne won't recognize the will because, to them, Robb had nothing to will. He was a rebel and he'll never ever be any good.

In terms of legality, whether or not someone can be legitimized after the fact is entirely a matter of opinion.

Henry VIII had two legitimate daughters, both of whom were bastardized, legitimized, re-bastardized and then re-legitimized, depending on who's army happened to be in London at the time.

I'm sure whoever eventually gets power can find scores of Maesters and Septons to swear up and down that [insert your opinion] is the law of the land.

This!

[grand old duke of stark]

'Ahai I'm Jon Snow' wrote:

Then there's this.

The North is in chaos right now. They don't care about details they have stuff to do and a limited amount of time, energy, resources etc. not to do what's best for them and the realm.

And I believe Robb's letter makes Jon a Stark in addition to being his heir, in which case Sansa and Rickon follow him in the line of succession anyway.

================================================================

I agree. We haven't seen the will yet, but my guess is that Robb legitimised Jon because he always thought of him as his brother and a Stark. It was the honourable thing to do, and in a way honouring Ned as well. Jon's place in the succession is the additional reason. He is the leader the North needs because he's a fighting man and a Northerner. Most likely once the Others have been defeated, Jon will step aside for a sibling, possibly being regent. Perhaps he will have moved on to bigger and better things.

[locke and key]

seeing as we know nothing really of the contents of robb's will other than that robb wanted jon to be his heir (I'm still unconvinced robb even got this into the will), we can't really tell whether there's some kind of clause which automatically defers power to bran or rickon if they turn up. I would guess not as robb was pretty convinced they were dead, and having a clause like that would likely cause a political shit-storm further down the line, if someone had been ruling for a while and was comfortable in the role and was suddenly forced to give it up

[Dave17]

You also have to ask legal to who?

The Iron Throne won't recognize the will because, to them, Robb had nothing to will. He was a rebel and he'll never ever be any good.

In terms of legality, whether or not someone can be legitimized after the fact is entirely a matter of opinion.

Henry VIII had two legitimate daughters, both of whom were bastardized, legitimized, re-bastardized and then re-legitimized, depending on who's army happened to be in London at the time.

I'm sure whoever eventually gets power can find scores of Maesters and Septons to swear up and down that [insert your opinion] is the law of the land.

This is kind of my point, the Stark's don't currently have any power of their own, all of their power lies within the loyalty of their bannermen. Will the lords who were present at the will signing think that Robb would prefer Rickon/Bran to be his heir and disregard it (assuming Jon doesnt willing deny the claim).

What if Jon is already crowned when Rickon/Bran reappear and doesnt want to step down, will his bannermen abandon him?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

"Power resides where men believe it resides", or the Essosi version "The Dothraki follow strength"

[juanml82]

You also have to ask legal to who?

The Iron Throne won't recognize the will because, to them, Robb had nothing to will. He was a rebel and he'll never ever be any good.

In terms of legality, whether or not someone can be legitimized after the fact is entirely a matter of opinion.

Henry VIII had two legitimate daughters, both of whom were bastardized, legitimized, re-bastardized and then re-legitimized, depending on who's army happened to be in London at the time.

I'm sure whoever eventually gets power can find scores of Maesters and Septons to swear up and down that [insert your opinion] is the law of the land.

Well, Westeros isn't Britain, so British laws don't have to be the same as Westeros.

That said, in Westeros only a king can legitimize a bastard and, so far, not even a King can cancel Jon's bows. So it will depend on the military and political situation. Was Robb a King and, therefore, can legitimize Jon? Would the Iron Throne accept it, on condition the North concedes something else (ie, submitting again to the Iron Throne without complain)? Can Jon leave the Night's Watch? Who's first in the line of sucession, Jon or Bran? And, on top, LF will cook something given the chance.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

seeing as we know nothing really of the contents of robb's will other than that robb wanted jon to be his heir (I'm still unconvinced robb even got this into the will),

We know Robb put Jon in his will from the ASOIAF app.

we can't really tell whether there's some kind of clause which automatically defers power to bran or rickon if they turn up. I would guess not as robb was pretty convinced they were dead,

This!

So many posters believe there will be some magical language stating Sansa is still cool to get Winterfell if she shakes her Lannister baggage and Jon is null and void if my brothers turn up. I often wonder if these posters have been reading the same books because in my books, Martin never includes these types of "get out of jail" clauses in things. I doubt that Robb's will shall have any of these things written in and it WILL create a tense situation for the Starks. That is the Martin I've come to know after 5 books. That said, I hardly expect a dance of the wolves but, hey, I rule very little out with Martin. Still, I think the Starks will find some common ground if left on their own. The thing is, they aren't left on their own. Stannis will most likely "appear" to support Rickon through Davos since he needs the North to win the throne and Littlefinger may make a move through Sansa since he wants to increase his wealth and power. The Stark will most likely be unable to say or do much to stop this for quite some time which makes me think Jon will break through the crap and hold Winterfell until the "fighting" stops. I don't think Arya will step into the fighting or Bran.

So yeah, the fact that all the remaining Starks are children could very well mean adults will fight for Winterfell and the North in their name if Jon doesn't step in or until Jon steps in, as rl history has shown time and time again.

[Small Bucket]

What if Jon is already crowned when Rickon/Bran reappear and doesn't want to step down, will his bannermen abandon him?

I can't envision a scenario in which he wouldn't step down on his own. It would be very out of character for him.

Though, if he did, I'm sure it would have to be an outstanding reason. If that were the case, I'll bet both Bran and Richon would demure to him. Bran can't have decedents anyway, so, being a Stark, I'm sure he'll sacrifice his own ambition for the good of Winterfell. We don't know what kind of adult Richon will be, but Starks are Lannisters, Baratheons or Targaryens. I can't image they'll tear their own lands apart for their personal ambition.

Well, Westeros isn't Britain, so British laws don't have to be the same as Westeros.

True, but everyone has been equally flagrant about flouting those laws, whatever they are.

Unless they can create a concrete and codified set of laws for succession, you're going to keep having everyone and their dog pop up every couple of decades and say "I'm King now! Right of Conquest!" that keeps the nation in perpetual war until the Westerosi version of the Glorious Revolution occurs.

[juanml82]

I can't envision a scenario in which he wouldn't step down on his own. It would be very out of character for him.

Though, if he did, I'm sure it would have to be an outstanding reason. If that were the case, I'll bet both Bran and Richon would demure to him. Bran can't have decedents anyway, so, being a Stark, I'm sure he'll sacrifice his own ambition for the good of Winterfell. We don't know what kind of adult Richon will be, but Starks are Lannisters, Baratheons or Targaryens. I can't image they'll tear their own lands apart for their personal ambition.

True, but everyone has been equally flagrant about flouting those laws, whatever they are.

Unless they can create a concrete and codified set of laws for succession, you're going to keep having everyone and their dog pop up every couple of decades and say "I'm King now! Right of Conquest!" that keeps the nation in perpetual war until the Westerosi version of the Glorious Revolution occurs.

We don't really know if Bran can have children or not. Ned states that, but I don't think he received medical information about it. Bran POVs never mention him loosing sphincter control. Of course, he might never leave the cave, so it can be a moot point anyways.

About succession, I think based on the books that laws are clear whenever legitimate sons and daughters are involved. GRRM, however, appears to be elusive regarding the place of bastards, both legitimized and not, in the succession line.

And about people claiming "I'm King now! Right of Conquest!" Yes, that's an issue. That's what made Renly's rebellion so dangerous in the long run, why Robb couldn't declare for Renly and probably one of the reasons why Stannis convinced himself to murder his brother.

[Fire Eater]

I think Robb's will will have a role to play later in the series, likely in naming Jon as KitN. Otherwise, what was the point of GRRM including Robb's will in the narrative? Jon will be KitN, but he will let Rickon have WF.

[The Fallen]

No. It won't.

Unless Robb specifically included language making the exceptions and caveats (and why would he, when he "knew" his brothers were dead? You don't make concessions for dead people), his will stands as written, with Jon as his heir.

Just a small point, but Robb didn't need to make caveats. He could have simply written, "in the absence of my legitimate heirs...". If his legitimate heir does appear then the will can be set aside.

[Silent Beast]

Just a small point, but Robb didn't need to make caveats. He could have simply written, "in the absence of my legitimate heirs...". If his legitimate heir does appear then the will can be set aside.

While I think it's more likely that Robb would not have made any reference to his known-to-be-dead brothers and simply legitimized and named Jon his heir, you make a really good point. It's definitely possible that the will is worded in a way like you stated, which would leave enough room for any Northern lord to interpret it in a way that could justify supporting Bran/Rickon over Jon.

[SIrDuncan the Tall]

Was it even a will. At that point he didn't think he was going to die. I thought it was more a royal decree that as the King of the North and Lord of Winterfell, he was going to legitimize Jon his half brother/ fathers bastard. He wanted t get this in place just in case something happened.

Once that decree is signed it would give Jon the best claim after Robb u less Jeyne had a kid regardless if bran or reckon was alive.

[Tywin Manderly]

Allowing a (legitimized) bastard to succeed is always the last resort so in the event that Rickon would re-appear the Lords of the North would flock to him in spite of the contents of Robb's will. In Westeros when it comes to the point a will is just a piece of paper and it comes down to how many swords you can get behind you.