The impulsive Cat (spoilers on book three)

[Minsc]

Not necesarily. The Tournament of the Hand allowed the Starks a great opportunity to call for reinforcements without drawing attention. Catelyn could have stopped at any friendly holdfast to ask for an escort in her way if she felt she was personally threatened, and send ravens to the North to send men, and lots of them "to the tournament" if she felt (rightly) that Ned had gone south with too few guards (a thought which never crosses her mind).

And how is all this supposed to happen/arrive before Tyrion takes her out and arrives at King's Landing?

[David Selig]

Rickard's actions happened because Catelyn undermined Robb's authority. Jaime might or might not have been a useless hostage, but the thing is, in war torn Westeros, that's up to the King to decide. By going against him, fully aware the King can't punish her severely, she's causing Robb and by extension the Northern war effort a great harm.

Rickard's actions happened because he was a crazy idiot. Nothing to do with Catelyn. Nobody sane would expect to get away with murdering two of Edmure's guards and two highborn prisoners under Robb's protection.

Not sure where you get that Robb couldn't punish Cat severely, she certainly expected it. That was the point - Cat release Jaime, she gets the blame and gets punished, not Robb, which is much less damaging politically for the Starks cause.

[butterbumps!]

I am half way through book three. I am at the part where Karstark killed the two Lannisters and Robb was about to kill lord Karstark.

I would just like to say how much I hate Catelyn. First Tyrion, then Jaime Lannister. These spun of the moment decisions have really helped to put Ned and Robb in their graves. Great Job Cat, them Lannisters couldn't have done it without you.

I'm not going to defend Jaime-gate on any strategic level, but I do want to point out that it wasn't impulsive. It was an emotional (yet somewhat rational decision) in so far as she was desperate for a way to get her daughters back alive, and given the odds against the northmen (Lannister victory at Blackwater and Theon's mission to take Winterfell) pretty much meant the entire cause was going to be lost and Sansa and Arya might never be returned. But the point is that she thought about it, and it wasn't "impulsive."

What I'm curious about is why you were inspired to come in and declare your hatred for Cat, pinning all of the Stark failures on her? Because Ned's decision to go tell Cersei that he knows about the incest (and later failure to secure her kids as leverage) was an equally, if not more detrimental act for the Stark family's safety. Not to mention that Cat is the one who told Robb not to send Theon, and had he listened, Winterfell would still be standing. And I don't understand why you place this vitriol on Cat when Robb's the one who broke the marriage pact that enabled the RW.

[Minsc]

Well, since Cersei Lannister of all people military defeated Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister survived both Ned and Cat, including pretty much winning the war between Starks and Lannisters, I'm going to say Tywin is likely smarter than Cat and Ned.

Cersei defeated Ned because he handicapped himself, as he cared more for her children then Cersei did. Tywin was helped along with a string of massive good luck while the Starks were hit with repeat bad luck.

[David Selig]

Well, since Cersei Lannister of all people military defeated Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister survived both Ned and Cat, including pretty much winning the war between Starks and Lannisters, I'm going to say Tywin is likely smarter than Cat and Ned.

Tywin had so much luck in this war he didn't need to use his brain at all, everything fell in his lap. He was toast if not for a bunch of unlikely incidents (shadowbaby, Lysa being secretly working against her own family, Robb and Jeyne, etc).

[Dicer]

Seeing I have had you repeatably argue that King's Landing is only made up of around five people, I would say you shouldn't be talking.

And seeing that I have had you repeatedly argue that Ned was a treacherous husband who wanted to replace his trueborn children with Jon Snow, you shouldn't be either.

Who cannot forget the mighty might of Jaime's military knowledge, of where he got himself owned by someone half his own age.

Are you seriously saying that Jaime Lannister has no military value?

1. He provides an immediate boost to the Lannister army

2. He has been shown to be a skilled commander, fighter and negotiator.

Meanwhile, with Sansa the Starks could have attempted to marry her to Willas or Robin in an attempt to convince those kingdoms to side with their cause.

Right, we have seen how well making marriage deals has gone for the Starks. Where the Tyrells just sitting around waiting for the Starks to make marriage offers? The Tyrells had better deals from the Renly and Tywin.

The best they would have got for Sansa would have been another Frey like they did for Arya. And that's the value for the Stark girls compared to the military asset that is Jaime.

That is if Tyrion kept his word and let them go in the first place.

[Blueberry Stark]

Do people actually think that Cat arresting Tyrion was a good decision? Or the right one?

Yes, some people think that it was a good decision, some think it was the best decision available given the information that she knew at the time, and obviously some people think that it was a terrible decision. Idk if you are being facetious in asking the question or not, but if you haven't read the catnapping thread, I would suggest reading it because it has some good points both for and against Cat taking Tyrion. I tend to believe that it was an understandable, but regrettable, mistake; however, a lot of that in my mind comes down to Lysa's idiocy in how she handled Tyrion being brought to her. Ultimately, we'll never know how it would have played out if Cat either: 1. didn't take Tyrion or 2. had been able to keep Tyrion as a hostage.

[Hellswung]

I'm not going to defend Jaime-gate on any strategic level, but I do want to point out that it wasn't impulsive. It was an emotional (yet somewhat rational decision) in so far as she was desperate for a way to get her daughters back alive, and given the odds against the northmen (Lannister victory at Blackwater and Theon's mission to take Winterfell) pretty much meant the entire cause was going to be lost and Sansa and Arya might never be returned. But the point is that she thought about it, and it wasn't "impulsive."

What I'm curious about is why you were inspired to come in and declare your hatred for Cat, pinning all of the Stark failures on her? Because Ned's decision to go tell Cersei that he knows about the incest (and later failure to secure her kids as leverage) was an equally, if not more detrimental act for the Stark family's safety. Not to mention that Cat is the one who told Robb not to send Theon, and had he listened, Winterfell would still be standing. And I don't understand why you place this vitriol on Cat when Robb's the one who broke the marriage pact that enabled the RW.

Hahaha, I am a passionate Ned hater as well. I didn't say the north failed because of Cat. I am only saying those two important events made possible by Cat really helped the north to loss faster, haha, see what I mean? I am frustrated because the good guys didn't act smart.

Well, they have heart and they value their family and honor above their ambition, and that is why they are the good guys. Pity. I am now rooting for Tyrion 100%

[juanml82]

And how is all this supposed to happen/arrive before Tyrion takes her out and arrives at King's Landing?

It's not supposed to, but the Lannisters aren't also supposed to murder Ned the moment Tyrion enters King's Landing. Ned has the King's protection, after all.

Rickard's actions happened because he was a crazy idiot. Nothing to do with Catelyn. Nobody sane would expect to get away with murdering two of Edmure's guards and two highborn prisoners under Robb's protection.

Not sure where you get that Robb couldn't punish Cat severely, she certainly expected it. That was the point - Cat release Jaime, she gets the blame and gets punished, not Robb, which is much less damaging politically for the Starks cause.

Sorry, I meant "punish severely = beheading". While Robb might very well, and should have, beheaded anyone else who released Jaime without his consent, he can't kill his mother. The fact that Robb (had to) let Catelyn get away relatively unpunished tipped Rickard over the edge.

Cersei defeated Ned because he handicapped himself, as he cared more for her children then Cersei did. Tywin was helped along with a string of massive good luck while the Starks were hit with repeat bad luck.

I agree, but Ned handicapping himself and underestimating her doesn't speak well of his skills to deal with the unexpected (as in, a woman putting up a fight)

[Lord Flashheart]

What I'm curious about is why you were inspired to come in and declare your hatred for Cat, pinning all of the Stark failures on her?

Don't you know? Anytime something goes wrong in the world, real or fantasy, it's a woman's fault.

[Minsc]

And seeing that I have had you repeatedly argue that Ned was a treacherous husband who wanted to replace his trueborn children with Jon Snow, you shouldn't be either.

Actually, I never argued that. Instead, I argued that it might reasonable for Catelyn to worry that Ned might have that in mind.

2. He has been shown to be a skilled commander, fighter and negotiator.

He got owned by Robb, and the only time he shows any of those skills is when he is forced to think after losing his hand.

Right, we have seen how well making marriage deals has gone for the Starks. The Tyrells are just sitting around waiting for he Starks to make marriage offers. The Tyrells had better deals from the Renly and Tywin.

That still gives them more options and insures that Tywin cannot steal the North's heir, and supplement with a Lannister claim by marrying her to a Lannister.

[Minsc]

It's not supposed to, but the Lannisters aren't also supposed to murder Ned the moment Tyrion enters King's Landing. Ned has the King's protection, after all.

So did Jon Arryn. Yet, he was still murdered by the Lannister according to their knowledge.

[David Selig]

Hahaha, I am a passionate Ned hater as well. I didn't say the north failed because of Cat. I am only saying those two important events made possible by Cat really helped the north to loss faster, haha, see what I mean? I am frustrated because the good guys didn't act smart.

Well, they have heart and they value their family and honor above their ambition, and that is why they are the good guys. Pity. I am now rooting for Tyrion 100%

Wait, you made a whole thread complaining about impulsive decisions, yet you picked Tyrion to root for? Oh, the irony...

[butterbumps!]

Hahaha, I am a passionate Ned hater as well. I didn't say the north failed because of Cat. I am only saying those two important events made possible by Cat really helped the north to loss faster, haha, see what I mean? I am frustrated because the good guys didn't act smart.

Well, they have heart and they value their family and honor above their ambition, and that is why they are the good guys. Pity. I am now rooting for Tyrion 100%

Well, the Catnapping didn't "help the North lose faster." It did offer Tywin reason to raise his banners publicly, but the Catnap itself (not Lysa's idiocy that followed) wasn't such a deleterious event for the Starks. Since you're not through aSoS yet, why not hold off on how Jaime-gate will play out? Because of all the actors involved, I don't think Cat's the one who fucked over the Starks or the North there. And when you get to FFC, there's some suggestion that her release of Jaime might actually pay off.

Also, wrt Tyrion being the character you're now rooting for, well, that might be just a touch premature.

[Dicer]

Actually, I never argued that. Instead, I argued that it might reasonable for Catelyn to worry that Ned might have that in mind.

Well, I never argued there were 5 people in Kl either. Since you were being deliberately facetious, I replied in kind.

He got owned by Robb, and the only time he shows any of those skills is when he is forced to think after losing his hand.

Losing one battle does not define how good or bad a military leader he is. Stannis lost Blackwater. Does that make Stannis a bad commander? Robb was a prodigy and good at what he did. He was able to combat Tywin himself. Does not make Jaime's value as a military asset any less.

That still gives them more options and insures that Tywin cannot steal the North's heir, and supplement with a Lannister claim by marrying her to a Lannister.

Tywin cannot steal the heir anyway since Robb disinherited Sansa. See? Problem solved. On the other hand having Jaime back at the helm of the Lannister army would have been a big boost both for morale and for military support. Robb would have had to face Jaime again in battle, and may have lost Northern soldiers to Jaime again (Like KarStark lost his family to Jaime in battle)

[Hellswung]

Well, since Cersei Lannister of all people military defeated Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister survived both Ned and Cat, including pretty much winning the war between Starks and Lannisters, I'm going to say Tywin is likely smarter than Cat and Ned.

juanml82

You've made your points very clear by now. I think those of us who are willing to listen already heard and understood your points. There is no point arguing with someone who just want his side of the argument win.

Anyways, I would still like to discuss another approach on Cat capturing Tyrion with you, and this time I am playing the advocate.

Cat captures Tyrion under the assumption that Tyrion is guilty, AND fully knowing there is a POSSIBILITY that Tywin will respond in force. Therefore, this entire incident would play out to the Stark's favor if Tywin hadn't responded in force.

So Cat is really making a gamble at this point. She is hoping to strike a blow against the Lannister power under two pretext

1) Tyrion is indeed guilty

2) it will not come to war before the truth gets out

So what is she hoping to gain? I don't think hanging Tyrion can be called a victory. It only serves to anger the Lannisters further and does them no lasting harm.

Cat also knows about Lysa's warning that the Lannisters killed Arryn.

When we put these information together, I think we can safely say that Cat is trying to uncover a hidden Lannister plot that will answer the riddle of Arryn's death as well as the attempt on her son's life.

Now that is a worthy outcome, one that will help her husband securing power at KL against the Lannisters. Worthy but very risky.

I've only thought of my side of the argument, and would like to hear yours.

[Sansa_Stark]

I don't ever recall Cat saying or thinking Jon was a threat to her children's inheritance. Instead I remember her being more afraid of Jon's future children. On my phone and about to sleep, but as I recall in AGOT, Cat was more afraid of the thought of Jon breeding and that her grandchildren wouldn"t have to compete with Jon's sons. The coldheartedness towarda him wasn't because she was afraid of him directly. It was out of pettiness

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] We don't allow hate threads. We also frown on commentary directed towards other groups of fans. This thread has both, so I'm closing it. Thank you. [/mod]