Quaithe's Riddle

[Aemon_Targaryen_939]

Hi guys, if trying to figure out the riddle that Quaithe left Dany in one of her chapters early on in ADwD.

The glass candles are burning: The obsidian candle burning in the citadel

The pale mare, and after her the others: I don't know who the pale mare is. Perhaps the others literately means the "Others"

Kraken: Victarion Greyjoy

Dark flame: ???

Lion: Tyrion Lannister

Griffin: ???

The sun's son: Quentyn Martell

The mummer's dragon: Perhaps something to do with Melisandre's magic? Isn't she trying to summon a dragon?

If it is possible to know what the ones that I don't are already this far into the book, then please try to explain them, but if I will find out what these are later on in the book then please do not say, because they would probably be spoilers. Thanks everyone!! :)

[Queen Elsa]

You already figured out some of the answers to the riddle (good job :cheers: ) but I'm not going to tell the rest 'coz you're going to find them out in the later chapters.

After reading the book, you can check the Citadel and click Prophesies, or search for topics in the forum that discuss Quaithe prophecies (there are bunch of them, I'm tellin' yah).

Enjoy your reading and welcome! :)

[Duncan the Lunk'n]

The Pale Mare- is referred to later,

Dark Flame - I don't remember that part

Griffin -

Griff

Mummers Dragon - Popular theory is

Young Griff

[Queen Elsa]

Dark Flame - I don't remember that part

For those who haven't finished reading Dance, DON'T CLICK:

He's with the kraken guy.

He is the Red Priest who healed the kraken guy's wounded hand.

[Duncan the Lunk'n]

For those who haven't finished reading Dance, DON'T CLICK:

He's with the kraken guy.

The Red Priest who healed his wounded hand.

Thanks i was just looking it up

[Ellana Stark]

Dark flame:

If some theories on Aegon are true, he might be a Blackfyre. Black fire= dark flame?

Though the Moqorro idea i more likely IMO.

[FakeJaqenH'ghar]

Was Quaithe actually visiting Dany in Meereen (in physical form)...or was this just a vision?

[Steelborn]

Was Quaithe actually visiting Dany in Meereen (in physical form)...or was this just a vision?

I think she is visiting Dany through obsidian glass candle.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

OP, the pale mare is just the pale mare.. the sickness outside of Meereen, which is slowly spreading into the city.

The others means all those she mentions next.

Edit: whoops, only after posting did I see the date of posting the OP :)

[Lyanna94]

As I read DwD (for the second time), I discover that Dany keeps mixing up the order of Quaith's prophecy about her "downfall or rise to power": "once for gold, once for blood, once for love" is one iteration, but within a few pages she switches up blood and gold while speaking to herself.... is this an editing issue? the order seems to mean all the difference in the world to me as a reader..... Dany clearly regards this prophecy as legitimate since she often replays it in her head, so I don't understand why she would mix it up... She even asks herself at one point, what is next? and wonders about the point of prophecies if one can't reign them in and nail them down, so to speak.....if she is fearful of treason, knowing the order and understanding the consequences of the prophecy would obviously be helpful, but how does she recognize real danger if she mixes up pertinent clues?

BTW, I am ultra new to posting; I have lurked for awhile when I was unable to actually read because my kindle was charging and so I beg your patience if I have brought up a question that has already been discussed.

and I kind of got off on a different tangeant than the original question...

[westerosifitness]

As I read DwD (for the second time), I discover that Dany keeps mixing up the order of Quaith's prophecy about her "downfall or rise to power": "once for gold, once for blood, once for love" is one iteration, but within a few pages she switches up blood and gold while speaking to herself.... is this an editing issue? the order seems to mean all the difference in the world to me as a reader..... Dany clearly regards this prophecy as legitimate since she often replays it in her head, so I don't understand why she would mix it up... She even asks herself at one point, what is next? and wonders about the point of prophecies if one can't reign them in and nail them down, so to speak.....if she is fearful of treason, knowing the order and understanding the consequences of the prophecy would obviously be helpful, but how does she recognize real danger if she mixes up pertinent clues?

BTW, I am ultra new to posting; I have lurked for awhile when I was unable to actually read because my kindle was charging and so I beg your patience if I have brought up a question that has already been discussed.

and I kind of got off on a different tangeant than the original question...

This was incredibly hilarious, in a good way. It just means that Dany is not as great as she thinks she is.

When I started this series back when I was 17, I did not consider every cryptic passage to be prophecy. That kinda sucks honestly because it leaves big guesses to the rest of the series, but some people like to figure this stuff out I guess.

I really hope that Jon can't just be ok and get with Dany in the end. That is way too obvious an ending.

[SixPence]

Dark Flame is Daario Blackfyre. His name is even derived from Daeron, a common Targaryen name.

Or, if being a red priest is good enough to be considered a "Dark Flame" as so many of you subscribe to. Why not throw Melisandre and Thoros into the mix aswell?

Basically, I think there are two Blackfyres and two Targaryens left.

Petyr Blackfyre/Reyne & Daario Blackfyre

Daenerys Targaryen & Edric Targaryen/Stark

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Or, if being a red priest is good enough to be considered a "Dark Flame" as so many of you subscribe to. Why not throw Melisandre and Thoros into the mix aswell?

Because they are not dark-skinned :P

[SixPence]

Because they are not dark-skinned :P

How about Areo Hotah then? Dark Skinned, and Dorne is pretty hot!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

How about Areo Hotah then? Dark Skinned, and Dorne is pretty hot!

Hotah is not associated with fire, though..

And Moqorro is named Black Flame by the ironborn. ;) how much more association with dark flames do you need? :P

[SixPence]

Hotah is not associated with fire, though..

And Moqorro is named Black Flame by the ironborn. ;) how much more association with dark flames do you need? :P

Black Flame, not Dark Flame. Named by the ironborn, noone else.

The argument for Moqorro is widely accepted, yet incredibly weak.

There is also no motive for Quaithe mentioning him, so why do everyone naturally assume Dark Flame refers to him?

Because it contradicts other generally accepted, weak theories.

And the same logic is applied to anything else that contradicts the other generally accepted theories, and they are all assumed as fact in the building of new theories.

A more logical reason for Quaithe to mention a Dark Flame is referring to a surviving member of the Blackfyre branch, as that is someone her family has been in direct conflict with.

Who are the most likely Blackfyre members? (And referring to Blackfyres as pretenders is also wrong, it's been stated in the books that it's just a result of history being written by the victors. Daemon was legitimised, and there was reason to believe Dareon was a bastard.)

fAegon's only supporters from the Blackfyre rebellion side is the members of the Golden Company, and he's presented as a Targaryen not a Blackfyre. Assuming that because he's fake he has to be a Blackfyre is just wishful thinking.

I believe it's more likely an actualy Blackfyre would not risk claiming to be a Targaryen in a Targaryen-hostile environment when he could just as well claim to be a Blackfyre. It's not logical.

Therefore I believe Petyr and Daario to be likely candidates. Both are working their way upwards as someone completely inconspicous, yet they work the system perfectly. Petyr also seems to have a great deal of support/alliances from houses that supported Daemon Blackfyre during the Blackfyre Rebellion.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Black Flame, not Dark Flame. Named by the ironborn, noone else.

The argument for Moqorro is widely accepted, yet incredibly weak.

There is also no motive for Quaithe mentioning him, so why do everyone naturally assume Dark Flame refers to him?

Because it contradicts other generally accepted, weak theories.

And the same logic is applied to anything else that contradicts the other generally accepted theories, and they are all assumed as fact in the building of new theories.

A more logical reason for Quaithe to mention a Dark Flame is referring to a surviving member of the Blackfyre branch, as that is someone her family has been in direct conflict with.

Who are the most likely Blackfyre members? (And referring to Blackfyres as pretenders is also wrong, it's been stated in the books that it's just a result of history being written by the victors. Daemon was legitimised, and there was reason to believe Dareon was a bastard.)

fAegon's only supporters from the Blackfyre rebellion side is the members of the Golden Company, and he's presented as a Targaryen not a Blackfyre. Assuming that because he's fake he has to be a Blackfyre is just wishful thinking.

I believe it's more likely an actualy Blackfyre would not risk claiming to be a Targaryen in a Targaryen-hostile environment when he could just as well claim to be a Blackfyre. It's not logical.

Therefore I believe Petyr and Daario to be likely candidates. Both are working their way upwards as someone completely inconspicous, yet they work the system perfectly. Petyr also seems to have a great deal of support/alliances from houses that supported Daemon Blackfyre during the Blackfyre Rebellion.

Look at the prophecy:

Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon.

The pale mare is directly referred to in text: the plague that comes to Meereen.

The Kraken & the Dark Flame

The Lion and the Griffin

The Sun's Son and the Mummer's Dragon.

These are pairs. The first two are Victarion and Moqorro. The second Tyrion and Jon Connington (who would be travelling together already at that point in time), the second are Dany's two suitors, to form an alliance with her, Quentyn and Aegon.

Pairs. How would an unknown Blackfyre fit in here?

Also, the arguments for Moqorro are not at all weak. He is a Red Priest, whose religion is known for using fire in their rituals.He had red fire tatoos on his inkblack face, he wore scarlet robes with flames on them, and he is nicknamed "the Black Flame". Nicknames don't have to be the literal names, referred to in the prophecy ;)

We don't have any Blackfyre (Petyr and Daario have absolutely no hints as to being Blackfyres) to fit the prophecy.. We don't have anyone else who could fit the prophecy, where the Dark Flame is concerned. At least not as well as Moqorro.

[SixPence]

Jon Connington and Aegon is the pair, being with the Golden Company at Griffins Roost. Tyrion is with Jorah. And Aegon is definatly not with Quentyn...

The pairs only work if they all were travelling pairs, the only pair travelling together is Victarion and Moqorro. This WEAKENS the theory that it is Moqorro, not strengthens it. As if it is Moqorro that's what creates the anomoly in the pattern.

If we look at the pairs mentioned the first is at Meeren and the second is in Westeros, which would support a Blackfyre or atleast a Dark Flame in Westeros. Aegon is referred to in multiple of the prophecies as the Mummers Dragon, which supports the claim that he's NOT a Blackfyre. And Jon Connington is also commonly referred to as a Griffin.

Petyrs grandfather was a sellsword from Braavos, other then that little of his history is known. And even that is told from Petyrs own mouth, not from GRRM.

Being a sellsword is of course not equal to being a Blackfyre. The theory I support of a Petyr Blackfyre/Reyne is built on abscence and not proof. I just believe that too many coincidences can add up to a truth.

Bran sees through the Weirwood a pregnant woman rising up from a dark pool asking for a son to revenge her. This is one of the visions that sparked the Petyr Reyne theory, however that's only a mother, obviously there is a father as well.

Petyr has green eyes, which is a common trait among Reynes and Lannisters. Petyr seems to have a "little finger" involved in multiple Lannister deaths throughout the series, including Joffrey. However, the Lannisters had given him Harrenhal and the Vale so he really had no great motive to have Joffrey killed and have so far failed to reap any fruits as a result of Joffreys death. In fact it could be argued that a living Joffrey, married to Margaery would serve the "Petyr-thriving-in-chaos" theory much better then a purple wedding.

Instead he's opened up the road for Varys, who most people claim to be his archenemy, to thrive. And still he has not gained any strength from the purple wedding. He could've just as well used the Tyrion-Sansa scheme to poision Cersei, and the kingdom would be in complete chaos, his relations to the Tyrells would still be strengthened and he would've kept a good relation with Tywin and Joffrey as well. Tyrion would still be put to trial, as Joffrey hated him just as much as Cersei, and most of the events that ensued would still have been the same. The Reynes and the Blackfyres also both had a bad relationship with the Starks so setting the Starks and Lannisters up to kill eachother off would serve every possible purpose he would have as a Reyne, or a Blackfyre.

Now, why can't he just be a Reyne? The Reynes, at the time of Littlefingers birth was one of the most powerful and richest houses in Westeros, second to the Lannisters. Which apparantly was the entire reason for the rebellion agains't the Lannisters. It does not make sense for a Reyne to be married off to just any old hedge knight who just got his lands on the fingers in the Vale. There is no ancestry to speak of, and no lands. Why would the Reynes marry into that? Well, the Reynes were Blackfyre supporters during the rebellion. If one of the Blackfyre "pretenders" were hidden away. And the pretenders were truly pretenders, for example a Faceless Man using glamour to appear as a Blackfyre, or something completely different. In that case House Reyne would likely be very willing to marry into House "Baelish".

House Baelish wouldn't be such an unnatural name to choose either. Baelor was a common Targaryen name, and it just so happens that the dark-haired son of King Daeron II was named Baelor Breakspear. I wonder if Daemon II's grandson could appreciate the irony of using his fathers cousins name to inspire the name of his house? That part is of course pure speculation though. But yet another coincidence, caused by an absence of history for the name Baelish. Keep in mind that abscence of history, and abscence of evidence is the one thing that could've saved house Blackfyre. So it's a fair assumption we wont find a history explaining how we would be finding a living Blackfyre descendant.

Say... If Daemon Blackfyre II had hidden himself and employed a Faceless Man to appear as him for the second Blackfyre rebellion, the last known location of that Faceless Man would be where Bloodraven confined him, in the Black Cells.

It just so happens we have another unsolved mystery in the Black Cells, which is what a Faceless Man was doing there and his actions as he got out. Where he was rogue until he reappeared on a mission in Oldtown, where there is rumored to be information on hatching Dragons. Just an interesting note on another absence.

Another interesting note is that the books never explain who did the actual act of posioning Joffrey. However, there was an Aemon Costayne who was supposed to sing in the Purple Wedding, one of seven singers. However, he popped off before he got to sing because "someone" put an abrupt end to the wedding, and people weren't feeling as festive. House Costayne also just happens to have been Blackfyre supporters during the Blackfyre rebellion.

Out of the other houses supporting the Blackfyres, it's noted that the Tarbecks supported both sides. Now, the extinction of House Tarbeck and House Reyne after their uprising against the Lannisters is noted as 260 AC, the Ninepenny King War happened in 259 AC-261 AC (according to the wiki). Bear with me here, but this is an awful lot of coincidences in my head, that all support the same theory. Bittersteel have hidden away the true Blackfyre heir through each rebellion, with the crown believing he's confined in the black cells. Keep in mind the Daemon II captured by Bloodraven was never given support by his bannermen, and was not given Blackfyre by Bittersteel In fact, he didn't even give to Maelor, and the Golden Company has not mentioned it once in any of the POV's that have been travelling with them. The swords whereabouts have also been absent since the end of the first Blackfyre Rebellion. It's also notable for the Daario Blackfyre theory here that Bittersteel fled to Tyrosh, and first served with the Second Sons. So again, whilst there is an absence of hints/stories there is still a connection. The rebellions still ensued, with no noted death of Daemon II and no Blackfyre sword. Again, there is an absence. The absence of motive (which you correctly commented on a different post), if Daemon II is not dead, why keep rebelling? When Robert took the crown, he didn't ride forth to Kings Landing himself. The rebellion ensues, the true heir sits safely in the Vale and waits, the crown believes they have the heir in their cells to use as a bargaining chip. But if a rebellion succeeds, the Faceless Man can change his face with glamour and the heir can step forth to claim the throne. Also note that Daemon Blackfyre was killed after unnecessarily saving Gwayne Corbray, the first house to bring Petyrs grandfather the sellsword to Westeros was House Corbray. (Somewhat parallel to the story of Jaime Lannister & Catelyn Stark)

When the last rebellion fails, the Reynes and Tarbecks rebel against the Lannisters, the strongest force loyal to the crown.

Yes, I know there is no proof. As I said, there is just an enormous amount of absence of proof. All adding up to a whole bunch of coincidences that match up with the theory that Petyr Baelish is the son of Daemon Blackfyre II's grandson, and the son of a surviving Reyne woman. He's the heir to his house, and not a legitimised bastard, or atleast not noted as such. Which suggest that his parents must've been married. Also note there is a theory that Varys snatched one of Kevan Lannisters sons during the KL uprising against Joffrey, again there is an absence of motive for Varys to do this. A Petyr Blackfyre/Reyne however, would have all the motive in the world to be killing off any Lannister heirs. In essence exacting the revenge on House Lannister that Tywin was trying to carry out on House Reyne. And he even comments on his amount of supporters among the common folk to Sansa.

I wont carry this on much longer, though I have much more absence of evidence that have led me to believe in this theory. But I will add one last absence.

Brandon Stark. Petyr challenged him to a duel over Catelyn Stark, Petyr doesn't display any of the hotheadedness people claim him to have here, in the rest of the books. He seems very calm and collected, and he's certainly not stupid. So the reason for him to challenge someone much larger, and much more skilled in combat to a duel eludes me. After the duel Brandon returns to his fathers wedding host that is on their way to Riverrun already, and apparantly hears the news Lyanna is kidnapped only to set off in a rage to challenge Rhaegar to a duel in KL. This is the catalyst for all the events of the War of the Usurper. Why weren't Lyanna with Brandon Starks wedding host? And if she was gone, why had noone reacted to news before Brandon suddenly heard them? Who told him? And if he was so well-informed, why did he think Rhaegar was in KL, when he was really at the Tower of Joy, and only Aerys the Mad King was in KL? And when Barbrey Dustin says Brandon didn't really care about Catelyn, why did he suddenly listen to her pleas to not kill Petyr, but still wounded him so bad that he nearly died from the injuries?

We certainly don't have any concrete evidence that Daario or Petyr are Blackfyre's, and I'll admit the Daario Blackfyre theory still holds rather weak. But I don't think any of the other theories on this forum, including Moqorro=Dark Flame have any concrete evidence either.

[dopplerdog]

Also, the arguments for Moqorro are not at all weak. He is a Red Priest, whose religion is known for using fire in their rituals.He had red fire tatoos on his inkblack face, he wore scarlet robes with flames on them, and he is nicknamed "the Black Flame". Nicknames don't have to be the literal names, referred to in the prophecy ;)

Well, initially - but then one chapter says Euron makes him change his faded red robes for new robes (made from sails I think?) which are black and have the kraken sigil on them. Euron comments that it makes him look even more sinister, further alienating him from his crew. So black robes + flame tattoos on his face = dark flame.

[Steelborn]

Well, initially - but then one chapter says Euron makes him change his faded red robes for new robes (made from sails I think?) which are black and have the kraken sigil on them. Euron comments that it makes him look even more sinister, further alienating him from his crew. So black robes + flame tattoos on his face = dark flame.

That is a reach. Why would Quaithe warn Dany of someone who has flame tattoos and happens to have black robes and not somebody who is known as black flame?

It can be Melisandre by your logic, in her bizarre encounter with Bloodraven, her blood ran down her thighs black and she's as fire as it gets.