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Sansa Stark and Arya Stark relationship


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Isn't there an SSM around hinting otherwise?

There is only someone's impression that GRRM might have given inkling that Sansa is to be blamed also for Lady's death. SSM in question has been heavily discussed, and disputed by many since we don't know exact GRRM's wording...

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Ewww. Not THAT argument again. :ack:

Anyway, Arya may find herself not even remembering Sansa very well at this point. There are a lot of things she buried when she buried Needle. Sansa is one of them. She heard about the Winterfell attack so she probably believes Bran and Rickon are dead. She knows Robb is. All Arya knew is that Sansa was in King's Landing the last she heard, and that was a good while ago. Since Sansa is under her own alias, Arya wont recognize a "bastard daughter of Lord Baelish" at all. She is so close to being No One, that the only one that still remains in her heart is Jon. If Arya does finally come back to being Arya Stark, i highly doubt shes going to give that many fucks about the Lady situation. Too much has happened since then. She knew Sansa was up on the steps of Baelor when Ned died and heard her screams. She only had Sandor's twisted word about what happened after that and Arya is not like to take that to heart. It seems pretty illogical to think Arya would hold a grudge about the Joff/Lady thing now and even know about the Ned debacle and Sansa's part in it.

Sansa herself doesnt blame Arya for the Lady thing anymore. The last time she mentions it, she says it was Cersei's doing. Sansa would love to see Arya again, without question. The problem is, if and when they meet again, will Arya recognize her sister as Sansa Stark? What would that do to Arya's mindset? Seeing any member of her family again (even Jon) may send Arya into a whirlwind of emotional and psychological turmoil. It wont be as rosy as everyone thinks, but not for the reasons everyone thinks.

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No comment on the Lady incident.

Sansa and Arya are rather typical opposite-trait sisters, but in extraordinary situations. Arya is a great believe in the pack surviving, and were she to be reunited with her sister she would be thrilled and relieved. They are both survivors in their different ways and have to admire the other for making it through the dangers.

BUT while absence makes the heart grow fonder, reunion makes it grow cooler. Though they might stay together, being so different they will probably go their separate ways. However, they will never harm each other.

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I thought of a theory that might happen.If GRRM is to create shocking revelations.

Let's say Arya is to return to Westeros as a Faceless 'Young Girl/Boy',she ends up at King's Landing becoming a cup bearer for Cersei.Then,Cersei ask her whether she knows anything about Hand Of The King job or people who once held the post.Then,Arya says no.Next,Cersei tells Arya everything from Tywin to Jon Arryn and then Ned Stark.How their time ended and so forth especially Ned.Arya gets shock that her own sister does it.Then,she asks herself whether she should end Sansa's life like Dareon if she can find Sansa from the words of Cersei.Once she's done with Cersei like the Bolton guard at Harrenhal,she goes on a mission to hunt down Sansa.

Might sound ridiculous but just a theory from my point of view.

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I thought of a theory that might happen.If GRRM is to create shocking revelations.

Let's say Arya is to return to Westeros as a Faceless 'Young Girl/Boy',she ends up at King's Landing becoming a cup bearer for Cersei.Then,Cersei ask her whether she knows anything about Hand Of The King job or people who once held the post.Then,Arya says no.Next,Cersei tells Arya everything from Tywin to Jon Arryn and then Ned Stark.How their time ended and so forth especially Ned.Arya gets shock that her own sister does it.Then,she asks herself whether she should end Sansa's life like Dareon if she can find Sansa from the words of Cersei.Once she's done with Cersei like the Bolton guard at Harrenhal,she goes on a mission to hunt down Sansa.

Might sound ridiculous but just a theory from my point of view.

Well, the question would be: Would Arya let Cersei live long enough to complete that tale? :P
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Reread the scene, Cersei does give the order, actually, and the wolf thing has nothing to do with Sansa not remembering. What Sansa bails from is contradicting Joffrey when he says Arya and Mycah attacked Joffrey, set Nymeria on him and threw his sword in the river. It is not Nymeria who's the subject at that moment, it's Arya.

Snippets:

"The girl is as wild as that filthy animal of hers," Cersei Lannister said. "Robert, I want her punished."

"Seven hells," Robert swore. "Cersei, look at her. She's a child. What would you have me do, whip her through the streets? Damn it, children fight. It's over. No lasting harm was done."

The queen was furious. "Joff will carry those scars for the rest of his life."

Robert Baratheon looked at his eldest son. "So he will. Perhaps they will teach him a lesson. Ned, see that your daughter is disciplined. I will do the same with my son."

This is AFTER they tell their stories, after Arya lays into Sansa. Note how Arya goes scott-free despite being totally guilty of assaulting the crown prince when he had done nothing to her.

And then:

Robert started to walk away, but the queen was not done. "And what of the direwolf?" she called after him. "What of the beast that savaged your son?"

[...]

The king was in no mood for more argument. "Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

There you have it, what Sansa said has no relevance whatsoever. Joffrey is hurt, and the wolves are savage beasts. It's not about what happened, Lady never bit anyone and they all know it. Cersei's argument does not segue from anything the girls said, it's a consequence only of Joffrey's wound, it would never have changed.

Ned was driven by narrative necessity, but to argue he could have done more if Sansa said something is occulting the fact that he could have done more right there: he defies Cersei over the pelt already, but for some reason he still kills Lady.

Speaking of that, I wonder what is done to dogs who bite children to the bone during a kid squabble, nowadays.

These are all what ifs, the whole if this and that, with Arya, Nymeria, Sansa, Lady, Joff, and Micah, in all the postings on this throughout the thread. I think, for that sake of what if......if it did come out that Nymeria was preventing Joff from actually hurting and/or killing Arya, not to mention he did the same thing with Micah for the simple reason that Joff was bored, had too much wine, and is a jerk, then the whole.........a direwolf SAVAGED Joff might not have been said, and the argument for killing either direwolf MAY have gone away. If Sansa had told the truth, the whole truth of what Joff did to Mycah for no reason (certainly not love and protection of Arya, LOL), and to Arya, it wouldn't have come off as a Nymeria possibly savaging Joff as her contribution to children squabbling. If Sansa had given Robert something to work with, it would have been apparent that Nymeria actually prevented Joff from seriously maiming or killing the Hand's daughter, and perhaps........Robert would have therefore stood up further to Cersei. Robert had nothing to work with, just one kid against another, and one direwolf that 'savaged' Joff for not much of a reason, so Lady was made to pay the price. Lady paid the price because it was presented as a pretty bloody attack for not much reason. Anyway, these are some of my, what if..........Sansa had told the truth? What if........that gave Robert enough ammunition to stand up to Cersei. Sansa's silence contributed to the idea that a direwolf is an unpredictable, dangerous beast. That's how Lady came to be substituted for Nymeria.

As for the OP and Arya and Sansa meeting, I don't see that being a giant problem, this idea of Sansa's big mouth having gone to Cersei. While that didn't help Ned, I think Cersei was moving against Ned anyway, and what Sansa did was put herself in Cersei's hands as a bargaining chip. If anyone does understand how that how went wrong, I do think, it may be Arya. She's the one who I think has been forced to grow up the quickest out of the two girls, without a Hound protecting her, or the title, Lady. She may surprise some, and really......just be so happy to know that Sansa lives. Granted, they could politically wind up on opposing sides somehow, but it'd be kinda funny if Arya hears of Sansa in the Vale, realizes she's under LF thumb and comes to save her Big Sis.

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Greetings everyone.I'm a newbie in this forum and a die hard fan of the book series.Everyone can remember that the two Stark girls had a shaky sisterly relationship due to the differences of their characteristics.Since the incident when Lady was wrongfully ended by Eddard Stark thanks to Joffrey's lie and Sansa avoiding to tell the truth,the two siblings did not get close as were before they left Winterfell.

I had a thought that I wish to state in this topic whether it had been mentioned before or not.When Sansa told Cersei about her father's plan to leave King's Landing for Winterfell,Arya did not know that Sansa had the intention to play out their father which resulted in his execution.So,Arya would have thought that Cersei did all of this without knowing the real truth behind her father's arrest.

Now with the upcoming book coming out next year if it really happens,once Arya returns to Westeros as a different person,will she find her sister and ask about the truth?Or will she go to places like King's Landing,Oldtown,White Harbor or Gulltown hearing whispers about Ned's execution?

If so,when she confronts Sansa about the truth,will she ended up killing her own sister due to her naivety or forgive her for her own mistake?As readers know that Arya is closer to Ned than Sansa is to her father.This is only a thought in my opinion.Because when Daenarys can do it to Viserys,why not Arya on Sansa?

Thanks for reading.

Welcome to the forum. I second what Mladen said and will add that Sansa's disclosure to Cersei did not lead to Ned's arrest or execution. That was on Ned for tipping his hand to Cersei that he knew about Joffrey's bastardry and giving her time to flee out of "mercy". Sansa told Cersei that Ned planned to leave Kings Landing because as a naive 12 year old, she didn't want to leave Kings Landing and go back to Winterfell. She believed the Queen was honorable. I'm not sure why people find it so noteworthy considering all the other betrayals and deceptions that did lead to tragedy.

I don't think Sansa and Arya's relationship was that shaky. My sister and I used to argue and fight when we were adolescents. Then we grew up and we're very close. Arya and Sansa both learned hard lessons from other experiences about the limitations of honor and the fact that people lie and betray. I'm sure that the sisters would like to see each other again, that is if Arya isn't too far along in her path to becoming no one.

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It only works if you think it is legitimate to attack the crown prince for hurting a peasant, and if you consider violence legitimate as the first reaction to that.

Well, a king or prince's responsibility is to protect his subjects so... it's certainly not right for Joffrey to hurt a peasant boy for no reason. Given who his parents are, I don't think he'd be punished for it, but I would bet that if Ned had caught Robb doing something like that there would have been consequences. And given the circumstances (Joffrey being armed with a sword versus Mycah being armed with a stick) I don't think it's so unreasonable that Arya hit Joffrey. Not how I would have reacted, but not completely out of the realm of reasonable behavior for a 9-year-old.

On a different note, when Sansa writes the letter to Robb from KL prior to Ned's execution (the one demanding that Robb come pay homage to Joffrey), Robb says something like, "what's wrong with the girl?" To which Bran replies, "she lost her wolf." I wonder to what extent (if at all) losing her wolf will lessen Sansa's connection to the other Stark siblings. It's interesting to me that the two Stark girls lost their wolves, but all the boys still have theirs.

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On a different note, when Sansa writes the letter to Robb from KL prior to Ned's execution (the one demanding that Robb come pay homage to Joffrey), Robb says something like, "what's wrong with the girl?" To which Bran replies, "she lost her wolf." I wonder to what extent (if at all) losing her wolf will lessen Sansa's connection to the other Stark siblings. It's interesting to me that the two Stark girls lost their wolves, but all the boys still have theirs.

You do know that Cersei dictated that letter and therefore that author of the letter is not Sansa?

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You do know that Cersei dictated that letter and therefore that author of the letter is not Sansa?

Well clearly. In fact, I think one of the characters even says it's Sansa's hand but Cersei's words (this might have been a conversation between Robb and Catelyn, I can't recall for sure and don't have the book in front of me). I did not at all mean this as criticism of Sansa, I'm just curious to know what effect, if any, the loss of her wolf might have on her connection to the rest of the family.

Personally I hope that @Ludd is correct and she gets another direwolf.

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I suspect that Sansa will need another direwolf before she can return home (perhaps a pup of Nymeria and ??? Grey wind or a half direwolf/wolf.

Or maybe just a little bird. :D

Call me materialistic, but I'd settle for a large army :P
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Welcome to the forum. I second what Mladen said and will add that Sansa's disclosure to Cersei did not lead to Ned's arrest or execution. That was on Ned for tipping his hand to Cersei that he knew about Joffrey's bastardry and giving her time to flee out of "mercy". Sansa told Cersei that Ned planned to leave Kings Landing because as a naive 12 year old, she didn't want to leave Kings Landing and go back to Winterfell. She believed the Queen was honorable. I'm not sure why people find it so noteworthy considering all the other betrayals and deceptions that did lead to tragedy.

Would Ned have been arrested regardless of whether Sansa had disclosed his plans? Most likely. But lets not downplay the consequences of Sansa's actions. Her actions caused two things to happen. One, it didn't give Ned enough time to put his own plan into action. Cersei knew that Ned had tried to bribe the City Watch into arresting her and her kids. But she didn't know when Ned was going to spring the trap. Once Sansa tells her that Ned will be getting the girls out of King's Landing, Cersei immediately puts her plan into action. Thus Ned's surprise when Cersei calls him to the throne room sooner than he'd expected or hoped. That is all because of Sansa's disclosure.

The other consequence of Sansa's disclosure is that it allowed Cersei to get additional hostages in order to completely handcuff Ned and what he was able to do. If Sansa and Arya are back in Winterfell then Ned doesn't have to confess to being a traitor. He can ask for a trial - does Cersei really want a trial where Ned gets to present evidence of Joffrey's true parentage? Or Ned could have just died - as he was prepared to do before Varys tells him about Sansa. And also think about how Robb was hindered also. And Cat wouldn't have had to free Jaime. Oh man, the possibilities are endless!

Sansa's actions may not have directly lead to Ned's arrest or execution. But indirectly hindered Ned and gave Cersei the trump card she needed to control Ned.

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Would Ned have been arrested regardless of whether Sansa had disclosed his plans? Most likely. But lets not downplay the consequences of Sansa's actions. Her actions caused two things to happen. One, it didn't give Ned enough time to put his own plan into action. Cersei knew that Ned had tried to bribe the City Watch into arresting her and her kids. But she didn't know when Ned was going to spring the trap. Once Sansa tells her that Ned will be getting the girls out of King's Landing, Cersei immediately puts her plan into action. Thus Ned's surprise when Cersei calls him to the throne room sooner than he'd expected or hoped. That is all because of Sansa's disclosure.

The other consequence of Sansa's disclosure is that it allowed Cersei to get additional hostages in order to completely handcuff Ned and what he was able to do. If Sansa and Arya are back in Winterfell then Ned doesn't have to confess to being a traitor. He can ask for a trial - does Cersei really want a trial where Ned gets to present evidence of Joffrey's true parentage? Or Ned could have just died - as he was prepared to do before Varys tells him about Sansa. And also think about how Robb was hindered also. And Cat wouldn't have had to free Jaime. Oh man, the possibilities are endless!

Sansa's actions may not have directly lead to Ned's arrest or execution. But indirectly hindered Ned and gave Cersei the trump card she needed to control Ned.

Exactly, I couldn't agree more, you summed it up perfectly, how Sansa's actions did help Cersei with timing, with holding Sansa herself hostage, and while I don't expect Arya to kill her for it, that doesn't mean Sansa is absolutely blameless in this situation. I also don't understand why some DO want to whitewash any of her questionable actions, it is the mistakes characters make and the shades of grey that many possess that do make the people who populate ASoIaF so interesting, Sansa included.

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Would Ned have been arrested regardless of whether Sansa had disclosed his plans? Most likely. But lets not downplay the consequences of Sansa's actions. Her actions caused two things to happen. One, it didn't give Ned enough time to put his own plan into action. Cersei knew that Ned had tried to bribe the City Watch into arresting her and her kids. But she didn't know when Ned was going to spring the trap. Once Sansa tells her that Ned will be getting the girls out of King's Landing, Cersei immediately puts her plan into action. Thus Ned's surprise when Cersei calls him to the throne room sooner than he'd expected or hoped. That is all because of Sansa's disclosure.

The other consequence of Sansa's disclosure is that it allowed Cersei to get additional hostages in order to completely handcuff Ned and what he was able to do. If Sansa and Arya are back in Winterfell then Ned doesn't have to confess to being a traitor. He can ask for a trial - does Cersei really want a trial where Ned gets to present evidence of Joffrey's true parentage? Or Ned could have just died - as he was prepared to do before Varys tells him about Sansa. And also think about how Robb was hindered also. And Cat wouldn't have had to free Jaime. Oh man, the possibilities are endless!

Sansa's actions may not have directly lead to Ned's arrest or execution. But indirectly hindered Ned and gave Cersei the trump card she needed to control Ned.

It seems that everyone forget how many people betrayed Ned, and that Ned truly was incapable of surprising Cersei. Janos Slynt betrayed him, so no matter when would Ned decide to strike, Janos would have simply told Cersei. When we see what Sansa told Cersei about leaving city, Arya's location, name of the ship, number of men... All in all, it was nothing essential for Cersei's plans to arrest Ned.

But, it did hinder Ned's position, no doubt in that. But, only that he was ready to say he was a traitor, nothing more. And Sansa certainly didn't hinder Robb's plans. He continued fighting without thinking about his sisters... Yes, possibilities. Just imagine that Arya would have to marry Frey boy... Ah, Arya Frey... That is also one of those possibilities people usually forget...

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But, it did hinder Ned's position, no doubt in that. But, only that he was ready to say he was a traitor, nothing more. And Sansa certainly didn't hinder Robb's plans. He continued fighting without thinking about his sisters... Yes, possibilities. Just imagine that Arya would have to marry Frey boy... Ah, Arya Frey... That is also one of those possibilities people usually forget...

I don't know. Elmar doesn't get to inherit anything, so he's rather free (but also poor). I have this idea of Arya and Elmar in their late teens travelling through Essos and Sothoros while Arya looks for a velociraptor to warg :P
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Call me materialistic, but I'd settle for a large army :P

Hahaha, yeah. Sansa's direwolf wasn't much help to her while living in the protection department, paying Joffrey and Cersei little to no mind and meekly accepting her death. (The Tyrion/wolves thread highlighted just how useless the wolves actually are in the protection department.) An army would serve Sansa's purposes much better, I think.

...With that said, Sansa's not getting another direwolf. She had a direwolf, and she lost it. She's not going to get another direwolf any more than Tyrion's going to grow another nose.

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