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Would the RW be less tragic if Catelyn had survived it?


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#1 Alayne's Shadow.

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 08:24 AM

As we know, the Lannister's original plan was to make Catelyn a prisoner, in the same manner as Edmure and Roslin. If Catelyn had lived, would the plot change that much in regards to the emotional impact? Would the RW be seen to the readers as in not so that much of a tragic event? Catelyn's death was the one that I personally felt the most, as she was one of my favorites...



#2 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 08:25 AM

Cat's death is what made it funny.

#3 ♛ Queen Alysanne ♛

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 08:35 AM

Cat's death is what made it funny.

Thats what made it sad.

I smell Cat hate  :idea:



#4 ♛ Queen Alysanne ♛

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 08:38 AM

To the OP yes it would still be tragic but less tragic, I couldn't read the series for awhile after Cat died.



#5 jon stark I

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 08:41 AM

I think more tragic somehow her resurrection returned her sanity to her.But think about a ruined mad Cat as a hostage.She would have been returned to Lysa as a reward of her "loyalty" to the crown but it would be too painful to read.Think about it.I think it was a mercy what GRRM did.Both to Cat and the readers.



#6 Lady Isobel

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 08:44 AM

I think it would make it more tragic. For a mother to witness her son's slaughter it would make life unbearable for her, especially since she thought most of her other children were dead. 



#7 Arthur Dayne's Honor

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 08:46 AM

It would still be very tragic but not as tragic. I would still be in a catatonic state

#8 Anath

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 08:49 AM

The RW would have been a good deal more tragic, had Catelyn survived. In her eyes, she wouldn't have anything to live for. Arya and Sansa were out of her reach, she thought Bran and Rickon were dead and now she would have had the nightmare of the RW and Robb's death accompanying her everywhere.



#9 aceluby

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 08:59 AM

I don't think it would change a whole lot.  I think it could be argued that Lady Stoneheart would have been born regardless of whether or not Cat is murdered.



#10 Aeternum

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:05 AM

It'd be more tragic for Catelyn, that's for damn sure. Imagine being betrayed, thinking all your kids are dead, watching your son getting killed right in front of you, and then having to be the next Lady Frey.



#11 DaarioKnowsBest

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:21 AM

In a way that if you take a grain of sand from a beach, technically there would be less sand but not enough to matter.
It would still be known as the RW and still be terrible.

#12 Sansa_Stark

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:31 AM

Thats what made it sad.
I smell Cat hate  :idea:

no cats is my favorite no lie i dont see why you think i hate cat

#13 Jon's Queen Consort

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:35 AM

Cat's death is what made it funny.

I wouldn't say funny, I would say hell yes moment. Pity it didn't last.

 

But I don't think that Cat could survive the RW (emotionaly I mean).


Edited by Jon's Queen Consort, 01 October 2013 - 09:35 AM.


#14 The Wolves

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:39 AM

Well I wanted Robb and Grey Wind to survive so their deaths was what made it tragic. I just didn't like how Catelyn thought all her children were dead except Sansa I wish she could have been spared that pain. Other than that Catelyn could die.

#15 Alayne's Shadow.

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:08 AM

It'd be more tragic for Catelyn, that's for damn sure. Imagine being betrayed, thinking all your kids are dead, watching your son getting killed right in front of you, and then having to be the next Lady Frey.

Would she turn into the next Lady Frey? I thought Walder was already married.

 

To the OP yes it would still be tragic but less tragic, I couldn't read the series for awhile after Cat died.

 

It would still be very tragic but not as tragic. I would still be in a catatonic state

 

Catelyn's our POV in the RW. I find It hard to read it without feeling sympathetic towards her. I had to put the book down after her death too, and It's still a very complicated chapter to read. The fact that she starts to see what she thinks are her biggest fears coming true, and how she tries to convince herself that It's not happening, is such a great piece of writing and such a sad, tragic moment. I feel that her death made it what became, especially to the reader.

But I don't think that Cat could survive the RW (emotionaly I mean).

I do subscribe to the theory that Lady Stoneheart was born the moment they twisted the sword in Robb's chest. There was no emotional return from that. Even if she was not harmed, she'd still be haunted, if not downright mad. I feel the same would have happened to Elia Martell if Tywin had decided to spare her, and not harm her in any way or shape. She'd still go as mad as Cat was.

 

I think more tragic somehow her resurrection returned her sanity to her.But think about a ruined mad Cat as a hostage.She would have been returned to Lysa as a reward of her "loyalty" to the crown but it would be too painful to read.Think about it.I think it was a mercy what GRRM did.Both to Cat and the readers.

Was that the plan regarding Cat? I thought she'd be sent to KL or CR to be a prize of war for some time, then used as leverage if anything continued in the Riverlands.



#16 Lady Fevre Dream

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:33 AM

Would she turn into the next Lady Frey? I thought Walder was already married.

 

 

 

Catelyn's our POV in the RW. I find It hard to read it without feeling sympathetic towards her. I had to put the book down after her death too, and It's still a very complicated chapter to read. The fact that she starts to see what she thinks are her biggest fears coming true, and how she tries to convince herself that It's not happening, is such a great piece of writing and such a sad, tragic moment. I feel that her death made it what became, especially to the reader.

I do subscribe to the theory that Lady Stoneheart was born the moment they twisted the sword in Robb's chest. There was no emotional return from that. Even if she was not harmed, she'd still be haunted, if not downright mad. I feel the same would have happened to Elia Martell if Tywin had decided to spare her, and not harm her in any way or shape. She'd still go as mad as Cat was.

 

Was that the plan regarding Cat? I thought she'd be sent to KL or CR to be a prize of war for some time, then used as leverage if anything continued in the Riverlands.

 

 

I don't think Cat would have been sent to KL or CR, Jaime was still trying to get all the hostages the Freys were holding when he met them at Riverrun for the siege.  The Freys seem to be holding some indefinately, as long as they want, and I'm not so sure that the order Jaime gave........the crown requiring their hostages........will be honored, especially with Jaime now missing.

 

I think the RW would have been just as tragic if Cat had lived, as I do think she'd be as crazy as LS is, then again, I wonder if a live Cat would have a chance at healing if she learned more of her children lived? 



#17 EstEst

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:47 AM

Definitely, it would be more tragic for Cat. I agree with the ones who regards her end as a merciful one.

 

However, if she'd survived physically, I'm sure she would survive mentally, since she knows that at least Sansa is alive, and this knowledge would keep her afloat. Sure thing, Cat would put all her energy to finding out what happened with her remaining kids, and to resquing those of them who still can be resqued. And then - to revenge for the others. The first part could be interesting for the plot, if she could interfere, but most probably she would still be kept prisoner which limits her interfering abilities.



#18 Lady Valicious

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 11:30 AM

Nope. I found the death of Robb tragic as he was so young and showed so much potential. It was sad Catelyn had to witness this while thinking all her children were dead or lost to her. But then I never liked Cat.



#19 Blueberry Stark

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 11:43 AM

If she was truly alive, then there would still be some hope that she could recover from the trauma of watching helplessly as Robb died. Eventually, she would possibly learn that Arya, Bran, and Rickon were alive, and she could possibly reunited with her children. She still had hope for Sansa if course. I'm not so sure that she irrevocably lost her mind; what she witnessed is enough to unhinge anyone for awhile, but it wasn't definitely permanent (although I suppose we'll never know for sure). With the hope of seeing her other children, and the thought of how much they may still need her, I believe Cat would have pulled through and healed mentally, although she would always be haunted by her losses. Most mothers can continue on with the loss of a child if they have other children to care for.

 

 

 

Cat's death is what made it funny.

 

 

no cats is my favorite no lie i dont see why you think i hate cat

Confusing.



#20 MotherAnduin

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 11:47 AM

It would be more tragic. Can you imagine Cat held prisoner in that mental state? Atleast with her death, she has freedom and is as well as she possibly could be.