Why Varys' speech to Kevan is necessary

[sarah.jenice]

I know the Epilogue comes up a lot - especially in the FAegon/Aegon debates - but I see it as a necessary end for two really long books that brought in a lot of new characters/storylines and a lot of unanswered questions.

There are only two books left, and Dance was the first one that has started to give us hints into what Varys and Illyrio are really up to since we first saw them meeting in the dungeons in AGoT. In the same way that Lysa reveals Littlefinger's part in everything and his plans to Sansa in ASoS, Varys lays out their plans to Kevan (not saying this proves Aegon is real of course since this works either way) so the reader will know them. This isn't about Kevan and Varys, it's about GRRM wanting the reader to know these details.

If you think about it, after that speech by Varys, pretty much all of the cards are finally on the table for all of the characters in the Game of Thrones. That was the one of the last pieces of the puzzle when it comes to contenders for the Iron Throne (not counting other plots that may be out there from Maesters/Faceless Men) since we had already learned about the plots/plans of Littlefinger, Doran, the Ironborn, Stannis, Dany, Cersei, etc.

I know a lot of people feel like it is out of character for Varys, but I felt the same way about how open Littlefinger is being with Sansa.

However, we don't have first person accounts for these characters so the only way to learn their plans is to have them tell another character through dialogue. At least the person Varys told is dead so his motives continue to remain a mystery to the other characters in the books.

Thoughts on this? Do any of you agree that while it felt a little off, this monologue was necessary for us to know Varys plans? And we also needed it for all of the real/fake Aegon debate.

[Sansa_Stark]

Popcorn.gif

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

There are theories going around that Varys only told Kevan all of this because the little birds were listening. These people believe that Varys has another endgame than Illyrio, and because Illyrio provides the birds for Varys, they believe that Illyrio uses the opportunity to spy on Varys. So Varys gave the monologue in order to keep Illyrio on his good side.

I don't believe this, however. I think the little birds are loyal to Varys. Here you have Illyrio, who takes them from the orphanages, trains them, and then cuts out their tongues. Then they meet Varys, who treats them gently, provides food for them, and perhaps even the occasional coin, who knows? I think they would like Varys a whole lot better, even if he kills the ones who grow too old. It is possible the new birds don't know about this until it is their turn to die.

Varys is a man who has been lying for years to people. It has to feel good to finally tells someone something true. When he tells Tyrion about how he got cut, his voice changes, the look in his eyes changes. He was telling the truth, and with Kevan, he does so again. Kevan has to die anyway, and he hasn't done anything wrong. He hasn't done anything to hurt people, or to piss of Varys. He only worked for the wrong side. Varys couldn't use him in the position he was in, so he killed him. It is very possible Varys feld sorry for Kevan, as the poor man was dying, and thus explained why he needed to do what he had done. Perhaps to show Kevan that he meant no harm to Kevans wife and children, to give the dying man some ease of mind in his final minutes. The murder of Pycelle was something entirely different. Varys hated Pycelle, and knew him to be untrustworthy. I can imagine Varys rather enjoyed killing him.

We are entering the next stage of the game. All the players are known. The cards are on the table. The goal is in sight. Now, it is time to see who is the smartest and the strongest. The survival of the fittest, if I might put it that way.

Martin needed us to know all Varys tells Kevan, so we are up to date. We can see that the game is moving on. And it makes Aegons story just a little bit more intriguing.

That's my opinion. Whatcha think?

[kiasyd]

To perform the dramatic function of a greek chorus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_chorus

[Gronzag]

That was speech for us, readers

[Maxpey]

Like other posters, I believe the purpose of the speech was to make us consider the possibility that (f)Aegon is real. I think GRRM assumed that most of us would conclude that the baby switching story (f)Aegon related to Tyrion was too contrived to be true (this seems to be the case, at least on this forum).

Varys telling Kevan that Aegon, Rhaegar's son, is alive (I know that this is hotly disputed) serves to make us at least wonder whether the baby switch really did occur. After all, it's no accident that GRRM waited until the last part of the Epilogue to the last book in the series to have Varys himself tell Kevan that (f)Aegon really is Rhaegar's son.

[butterbumps!]

I know the Epilogue comes up a lot - especially in the FAegon/Aegon debates - but I see it as a necessary end for two really long books that brought in a lot of new characters/storylines and a lot of unanswered questions.

There are only two books left, and Dance was the first one that has started to give us hints into what Varys and Illyrio are really up to since we first saw them meeting in the dungeons in AGoT. In the same way that Lysa reveals Littlefinger's part in everything and his plans to Sansa in ASoS, Varys lays out their plans to Kevan (not saying this proves Aegon is real of course since this works either way) so the reader will know them. This isn't about Kevan and Varys, it's about GRRM wanting the reader to know these details.

If you think about it, after that speech by Varys, pretty much all of the cards are finally on the table for all of the characters in the Game of Thrones. That was the one of the last pieces of the puzzle when it comes to contenders for the Iron Throne (not counting other plots that may be out there from Maesters/Faceless Men) since we had already learned about the plots/plans of Littlefinger, Doran, the Ironborn, Stannis, Dany, Cersei, etc.

I know a lot of people feel like it is out of character for Varys, but I felt the same way about how open Littlefinger is being with Sansa.

However, we don't have first person accounts for these characters so the only way to learn their plans is to have them tell another character through dialogue. At least the person Varys told is dead so his motives continue to remain a mystery to the other characters in the books.

Thoughts on this? Do any of you agree that while it felt a little off, this monologue was necessary for us to know Varys plans? And we also needed it for all of the real/fake Aegon debate.

There's no other time Martin has ever broken the 4th wall to communicate something just for readers without some in story significance.

And it's wildly different than the Sansa reveals, namely, because Sansa is alive. As in, she hears this information, and as an alive burgeoning player, will ostensibly be using this info for some future influence. So this posits something in story that promises to have some future development in story.

For Varys to all of a sudden become a bond villain who loses all the precise discipline we've seen all series seems a bit much. I can sort of see a case for Varys to find some catharsis in finally being able to drop his act and be "himself" for once to a dying man. But even this seems rather unsatisfactory given that there's a new master of whispers in charge, Varys knows better than anyone that the walls have ears, and it would be somewhat careless if this is all some form of catharsis for him.

And the speech he gives sounds like an Enlightened Monarchy commercial. He gives this riveting address about how Aegon has been prepared to be the ideal monarch through training, not birth right. The content and style of the speech doesn't read as though it's being said solely for a dying man.

[mediterraneo]

Well, I find it a clear cut explaination that we should never, ever believe anything Varys is saying, not even to a dying man. Not even to Illyrio in the dungeons.

He is pretending to be doing the exact opposite of what he is doing: he started civil wars as he could, he pretended to be trying to marry Sansa to the Tyrrells to plant the seeds of the Tyrrell-Lannister crisis...He always fails at what he seems to attempt, and he is always a step forward from the people that he is manipulating.

Including the readers who believe him because they believe he is talking to Kevan, and not motivating his brainwashed (and soon to be "replaced": we know that he needed new ones in GoT) soldiers.

[Lady Winter Rose]

He was lying because he wasn't alone. There were children nearby who needed convincing to kill somebody or, later, to do something worse or same.

[Skadhi]

And the speech he gives sounds like an Enlightened Monarchy commercial. He gives this riveting address about how Aegon has been prepared to be the ideal monarch through training, not birth right. The content and style of the speech doesn't read as though it's being said solely for a dying man.

Because it isn't just being said for Kevan. It's being said for us. It's like a monologue in a Shakespearean play.

Varys was telling the truth. There is simply no reason for him to lie; who are his little birds going to tell? No one--for all we know, they look up to Varys as a father and are extremely loyal to him. And I doubt (although I could be wrong) that GRRM would lay it all out on the table like that and then snatch it back.

[butterbumps!]

Because it isn't just being said for Kevan. It's being said for us. It's like a monologue in a Shakespearean play.

Varys was telling the truth. There is simply no reason for him to lie; who are his little birds going to tell? No one--for all we know, they look up to Varys as a father and are extremely loyal to him. And I doubt (although I could be wrong) that GRRM would lay it all out on the table like that and then snatch it back.

And why, at the very end of book 5, does Martin introduce a Greek Chorus when what's said in the previous 10,000 pages all has some in-story bearing?

[kiasyd]

There's no other time Martin has ever broken the 4th wall to communicate something just for readers without some in story significance.

Wouldn't this apply to other prologue / epilogue instances as well?

[Skadhi]

And why, at the very end of book 5, does Martin introduce a Greek Chorus when what's said in the previous 10,000 pages all has some in-story bearing?

Example?

If you mean the whole Aegon storyline, there is mention of Jon Connington in a couple of the other books. With as often as his name came up, we probably should have guessed he wasn't really dead; only now is it clear that was Varys' plan all along. Once Aerys exiled Connington, he found a use for him. He found a use for Barristan as well, after Joffrey exiled him. I think he wanted to find a way to get Ned on his side somehow, rather than have him killed.

If given the choice he'd rather not kill Kevan, but Kevan was entrenched on the Lannister side. As Jon Snow said once, "We need every man; why kill one to no purpose? Make use of him instead."

[butterbumps!]

Wouldn't this apply to other prologue / epilogue instances as well?

No, they all have in-story relevance. There's a difference between world-building and giving explanations of things, like Merrett thinking about the Red Wedding and a lesson about skin-changing within someone's POV, and then having a character face the audience and start addressing them directly. None of those other prologues or epilogues have broken the 4th Wall, which is what some are saying Varys is doing.

[butterbumps!]

Example?

If you mean the whole Aegon storyline, there is mention of Jon Connington in a couple of the other books. With as often as his name came up, we probably should have guessed he wasn't really dead; only now is it clear that was Varys' plan all along. Once Aerys exiled Connington, he found a use for him. He found a use for Barristan as well, after Joffrey exiled him. I think he wanted to find a way to get Ned on his side somehow, rather than have him killed.

If given the choice he'd rather not kill Kevan, but Kevan was entrenched on the Lannister side. As Jon Snow said once, "We need every man; why kill one to no purpose? Make use of him instead."

I don't know if you realize I'm not making any arguments about whether or not Varys is lying.

The OP posits that Varys' words are said just for the reader. When a character says something intended to address the reader, it's called breaking the 4th wall. As in, the words have no bearing on anything that will happen in story and are said for no other purpose than to tell the audience something.

I said that given the fact that Martin has never before had a character address only the readers, that this is unlikely to be the case with Varys' speech. Meaning, there's a reason why Varys is speaking to Kevan at all that doesn't have anything to do with just giving the readers info. And frankly, the readers already know everything Varys is saying given that we've seen Aegon, know he's supposed to be real, and was trained to be a "good" king, so as a simple "here's what's going on" to the reader, it's pretty unnecessary.

[Mladen]

I don't know if you realize I'm not making any arguments about whether or not Varys is lying.

The OP posits that Varys' words are said just for the reader. When a character says something intended to address the reader, it's called breaking the 4th wall. As in, the words have no bearing on anything that will happen in story and are said for no other purpose than to tell the audience something.

I said that given the fact that Martin has never before had a character address only the readers, that this is unlikely to be the case with Varys' speech. Meaning, there's a reason why Varys is speaking to Kevan at all that doesn't have anything to do with just giving the readers info. And frankly, the readers already know everything Varys is saying given that we've seen Aegon, know he's supposed to be real, and was trained to be a "good" king, so as a simple "here's what's going on" to the reader, it's pretty unnecessary.

I am not certain whether Martin broke the 4th wall, but perhaps cracked it?

There is simple explanation for why Varys created confusion regarding Aegon and why the what we called "enlightened speech" monarch. Children are there. A mute children, yes, but heck, has anyone thought of Wex? There is of course that direction...

Another one is for me more confusing, and it relates to the 4th wall butterbumps talked about. She is right, Martin never did that before and it is unlikely he did it now. But, then again, each scene can have more than one purpose. Remember, Lysa's confession that she killed Jon, and sent letter to Cat accusing Lannisters. It almost sounded like it is just for the readers until you realize who is listening - Sansa and Marillion. And since Marillion's tongue was soon cut and he is no longer among living, Sansa is the loose end of that scene. Meaning, we have found out important thing from that scene, now we should just wait when that information becomes important sometime in the future. So, while this scene may for now seem like breaking the 4th wall, I doubt it has only that purpose... That speech had its function and I can bet we'll find it soon enough...

[Skadhi]

I don't know if you realize I'm not making any arguments about whether or not Varys is lying.

The OP posits that Varys' words are said just for the reader. When a character says something intended to address the reader, it's called breaking the 4th wall. As in, the words have no bearing on anything that will happen in story and are said for no other purpose than to tell the audience something.

I said that given the fact that Martin has never before had a character address only the readers, that this is unlikely to be the case with Varys' speech. Meaning, there's a reason why Varys is speaking to Kevan at all that doesn't have anything to do with just giving the readers info. And frankly, the readers already know everything Varys is saying given that we've seen Aegon, know he's supposed to be real, and was trained to be a "good" king, so as a simple "here's what's going on" to the reader, it's pretty unnecessary.

Okay, I see what you're saying. But as far as the "words have no bearing on anything that will happen in the story"...that doesn't make sense to me in this case. There is simply no other reason for Varys to go into an explanation at all. He could have just killed him and been done with it and we'd be none the wiser.

The 4th wall can be a form of romantic irony, though. That's more common in literature; the 4th wall itself is a theatrical device.

As far as the readers know what's going on, well, I give you Fake Aegon. Clearly, some readers don't know what's going on and feel the need to invent a fake Aegon for whatever reason, like there aren't enough plot twists in the story.

Now, I think he's for real. There's no reason to show us all that if he's not. And yet, people still think he's fake. That makes zero literary sense to me. None. There's no point to it and it's a waste of 1000+ pages if that's the case.

I think it's more Martin saying, "This is what's going on in the story, and this is where the story is going." It's laying it all out there--five books worth of plots and counterplots; murders; war; and general ruin. Now it's time to get down to business.

[Jimmy is not No One]

I agree that grrm has never broken the fourth wall before an it shouldn't be viewed as him breaking the fourth wall here. I would consider his speech to Kevin as a way of gloating. He is expressing power, as in, this game between us is over, I won Kevin and now I can take my time in killing you. Oh and btw everything you helped build, I will destroy. I'd say it would be very human of varys to want to tell Kevin everything. Perhaps this whole scene is to show that varys is more human than we've previously seen. He is a master of whispers, lies, manipulation and secret passages. He seemingly doesn't have any weaknesses. But now we know he is ruled by some of the same desires as most of us. I really liked LF drunkenly spilling the beans to Sansa because it shows that deep down he wants people to acknowledge his success in playing the game of thrones. LF had his moment with Sansa. Maybe this is varys equivalent moment.

[kiasyd]

Indeed! I'm not making any case regarding Varys lying or not, but I agree with Mladen, that GRRM sometimes "hack" the 4th wall and it certainly contributes to world building, as butterbumps! pointed.

[Skadhi]

I am not certain whether Martin broke the 4th wall, but perhaps cracked it?

That's what I was thinking, too. He allowed us to see a side of Varys we've never seen before: the relentless idealist who's willing to spend almost 20 years pursuing an ideal. It also shows he's human; he's had to juggle multiple balls and change tactics at lightning speed as the situation changes.

I think he really is sorry he's going to kill Kevan, but he's an idealist, and he can't do anything else if he's going to accomplish his goal.