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The Ruby Pattern


yolkboy

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The have been several threads about hidden patterns/symbolism etc. in ASoIaF items. Now I'll present a pattern found within the mention of rubies. It's more complex than the standard Item=Meaning pattern as they're so often mentioned - so I'll give an example just before the list of rubies to show it's fairly simple.

The ruby pattern is essentially split in two;

1. House Targaryen associated (by fire & blood)

2. House Lannister associated (by lion)

Every ruby fits into one of the two categories. These are two distinct patterns, so separating them is the first step. Any ruby with a 'lion' or a Lannister written very close by, is removed. Every other ruby that's left, should be what I'll call a 'Targaryen ruby', defined below.

House Targaryen

Targaryen rubies have the keywords: fire and blood, and any House Targaryen. Their house words and members. Anytime there's a ruby mentioned, an allusion to those keywords must be in the same sentence or very close - the rule of this pattern. If any ruby lacks a keyword allusion close by, the pattern is broken - and there's 66 rubies here.

Key: RUBY TARGARYEN FIRE BLOOD

example :... blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened afire - we have a ruby, there must be a fire or a blood allusion or a Targ very close. Blood & fire are close, so it fits the pattern.

A Game of Thrones

the Targaryen prince armored all in black.On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red

Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies

“Mycah and I are going to ride upstream and look for rubies at the ford.”
Rubies,” Sansa said, lost. “What rubies?”
Arya gave her a look like she was so stupid. “Rhaegar’s rubies. This is where King Robert killed him and won the crown.”
Sansa regarded her scrawny little sister in disbelief. “You can’t look for rubies

His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes.

“The same could be said of rubies and diamonds and fire opals, Princess... and dragon’s eggs are rarer by far.

bloodred on top, black rot beneath.The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap (weirwood blood) that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby.

She (Dany) enjoyed watching all the people too: dark solemn Asshai’i and tall pale Qartheen, the bright-eyed men of Yi Ti in monkey-tail hats, warrior maids from Bayasabhad, Shamyriana, and Kayakayanaya with iron rings in their nipples and rubies in their cheeks.

There’s no crossing on the Green Fork above the ruby ford, where Robert won his crown (every ruby ford = Targaryen as that's where the House 'fell'. I'll omit the rest)

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk* (this is used later) streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him.

A Clash of Kings

(First time we meet Mel, the code is Mel, fire & blood in order)

Lady Melisandre, her deep voice flavored with the music of the jade Sea. “You ought take more care.” As ever, she wore red head to heel, a long loose gown of flowing silk as bright as fire, with dagged sleeves and deep slashes in the bodice that showed glimpses of a darker bloodred fabric beneath. Around her throat was a red gold choker tighter than any maester’s chain, ornamented with a single great ruby.

the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow.”“Gods make uncertain allies at best,” the old man insisted, “and that one has no power here.”
“You think not?” The ruby at Melisandre’s throat caught the light

She met him beneath the high table with every man’s eyes upon them. But Cressen saw only her. Red silk (Rhaegar at the trident), red eyes, the ruby red at her throat

He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. “He does have power here, my lord,” the woman said. “And fire cleanses.” At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly.

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire

Your (Dany) dragon eggs were more precious than rubies. A living dragon is beyond price

A column of camelry emerged from the city as her (Dany) honor guards.The riders wore scaled copper armor and snouted helms with copper tusks and long black silk plumes, and sat high on saddles inlaid with rubies and garnets.

“For the Mother of Dragons, no gift is too great.” Xaro was a languid, elegant man with a bald head and a great beak of a nose crusted with rubies, opals, and flakes of jade

As he neared, she saw that Stannis wore a crown of red gold with points fashioned in the shape of flames. His belt was studded with garnets and yellow topaz, and a great square-cut ruby was set in the hilt of the sword he wore.

“make way, make way for the Mother of Dragons.”
Reclining on cool satin cushions, Xaro Xhoan Daxos poured ruby-red wine into matched goblets of jade and gold

“I am named Melisandre, ser.” She alone came unarmored, but for her flowing red robes. At her throat the great ruby drank the daylight. “I serve your king, and the Lord of Light.”(fire god)

Some wore sumptuous robes of ermine, ruby velvet, and cloth of gold. Others fancied elaborate armor studded with gemstones, or tall pointed hats speckled with stars.

A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.... mother of dragons

Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man’s throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell.

A Storm of Swords

The great fire that burned atop the Sharp Point watchtower at the end of Massey’s Hook reminded him of the ruby she wore at her throat, and when the world turned red at dawn and sunset the drifting clouds turned the same color as the silks (red silks = Rhaegar at the trident again) and satins of her rustling gowns.

But Rhaegar lost on the Trident. He lost the battle, he lost the war, he lost the kingdom, and he lost his life. His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate, and Robert the Usurper rode over his corpse to steal the iron Throne. Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”

He glanced up through the bars, and there she stood in shimmering scarlet with her great ruby at her throat, her red eyes gleaming as bright as the torch that bathed her. “Melisandre,” he said, with a calm he did not feel.

The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. “So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly - does your heart burn with the shining light of R’hllor

chests of rubies, and more wines than a man could drink in a hundred years Though Celtigar had shown the world a niggardly face, he had never stinted on his own comforts. “Put his castle to the torch and his people to the sword

When the fires speak more plainly, so shall I. There is truth in the flames, but it is not always easy to see.” The great ruby at her throat drank fire from the glow of the brazier.

R’hllor chooses such instruments as he requires.” The ruby at Melisandre’s throat shone redly. “His ways are mysterious, but no man may withstand his fiery will.”

You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.” Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing.

A king’s son, with the power of kingsblood in his veins.” Melisandre’s ruby glowed like a red star at her throat.

Rubies glimmered in the light. She picked the treasure up gingerly, curled her fingers around the leather grip, and slowly slid the sword free of its scabbard. Blood and black the ripples shone.

The ruby at her throat seemed to pulse, in time with the beating of her heart. “The Lord’s fire lives within me, Jon Snow. Feel.”

A Feast for Crows

Gold glimmered yellow in the candlelight and rubies smoldered red.

The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate.

“The Silence returned with holds full of treasure. Plate and pearls, emeralds and rubies, sapphires big as eggs (Aegon ftw)

rusted helms and shining swords... aye, and rubies.”
That interested Ser Hyle. “Rhaegar’s rubies?”

Lyn Corbray, who went to stand beside the hearth instead. The heart-shaped ruby in the pommel of his sword shone redly as he warmed his hands.

A Dance with Dragons

Within the solar the air was warm. Lady Melisandre was seated near the fire, her ruby glimmering against the pale skin of her throat. Ygritte had been kissed by fire; the red priestess was fire, and her hair was blood and flame.

The ruby at Melisandre’s throat gleamed red. “It is not the foes who curse you (Jon) to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red

She swept a hand toward Stannis, and the great ruby at her throat pulsed with light. He is stone and she is flame

“Here he comes,” he said when he saw Jon, “the brave boy who slew Mance Rayder when he was caged and bound.” The big square-cut gem that adorned his iron cuff glimmered redly. “Do you like my ruby, Snow?

“Not me. I’m done with those bloody fools.” Rattleshirt tapped the ruby on his wrist. “Ask your red witch, bastard.”

The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt’s wrist was brightening and darkening as well

blood-red silk. With his hair washed and cut and freshly dyed a deep, dark blue, his eyes looked blue as well. At his throat he wore three huge square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron, a gift from Magister Illyrio. Red and black. Dragon colors

… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow.” Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others

Melisandre felt the warmth in the hollow of her throat as her ruby stirred (warmth from the ruby is from the repeated notion that there's fire 'inside' her ruby - it gets hot several times etc, and burns her when she uses glamours. there's also a hearth close by if that's wrong.)

the ruby seemed to pulse. He tapped it with the edge of his blade. The steel made a faint click against the stone. “I feel it when I sleep. Warm against my skin, even through the iron. Soft as a woman’s kiss. Your kiss. But sometimes in my dreams it starts to burn, and your lips turn into teeth. Every day I think how easy it would be to pry it out, and every day I don’t. Must I wear the bloody bones as well?

with their blind and bloody eyes.” The wildling’s own eyes narrowed. Grey eyes, brown eyes; Melisandre could see the color change with each pulse of the ruby

Lord Snow.” The wildling grinned at them through a mouth of brown and broken teeth. The ruby on his wrist glimmered in the morning light like a dim red star.

He (Jon) leaves me no choice. So be it. “Devan, leave us,” she said, and the squire slipped away and closed the door behind him. Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word

The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling’s wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded.

When the flames had licked at Rattleshirt, the ruby at her throat had grown so hot that she had feared her own flesh might start to smoke and blacken. Thankfully Lord Snow had delivered her from that agony

And Melisandre said, “Let them come forth, who would be joined.” The flames cast her shadow on the Wall behind her, and her ruby gleamed against the paleness of her throat. Jon turned to Alys Karstark

Melisandre’s eyes shone as bright as the ruby at her throat. “Then come to me and be as one.” As she beckoned, a wall of flames roared upward, licking at the snowflakes with hot orange tongues.

Melisandre of Asshai stood closer to the fire, the ruby at her throat pulsing with every breath she took

66/66 Targaryen rubies fitting the premise. Next, the remaining rubies we separated...

House Lannister

Here's all the Lannister ruby mentions. If you add this to the Targaryen list, that's every single ruby mention in the books. The keywords are any Lannister or lion.

A Game of Thrones
Garnets and amethysts and black pearls adorned the metalwork, and here and there an emerald or ruby. “Perhaps we might begin soon,” the Grand Maester said, hands knitting together atop his broad stomach.(Pycelle is at the first small council meeting and he was acting as a 'Lannister creature, with Lannister interests and representing House Lannister')

Ser Boros was an ugly man with a broad chest and short, bandy legs. His nose was flat, his cheeks baggy with jowls, his hair grey and brittle. Today he wore white velvet, and his snowy cloak was fastened with a lion brooch. The beast had the soft sheen of gold, and his eyes were tiny rubies

(solved by the Lion but Boros is another Lannister creature)

The queen wore a high-collared black silk gown, with a hundred dark red rubies sewn into her bodice, covering her from neck to bosom.

Joff wore plush black velvets slashed with crimson, a shimmering cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar, and on his head a golden crown crusted with rubies

Their mate, a male with a magnificent mane, reclined atop Lord Tywin’s greathelm, one paw raking the air as he roared. All three lions were wrought in gold, with ruby eyes.

A Clash of Kings
King Joffrey sat above them all, amongst the blades and barbs of the Iron Throne. He was in crimson samite, his black mantle studded with rubies, on his head his heavy golden crown.

His rondels were sunbursts, the roaring lion that crowned his helm had ruby eyes, and a lioness on each shoulder fastened a cloth-of-gold cloak so long and heavy that it draped the hindquarters of his charger.

Tyrion wore a doublet of black velvet covered with golden scrollwork, thigh-high boots that added three inches to his height, a chain of rubies and lions’ heads.

His uncle’s part went less well. The bride’s cloak he held was huge and heavy, crimson velvet richly worked with lions and bordered with gold satin and rubies

Rubies,” Lord Tywin said. “Garnets lack the fire.”

Joff’s hilt was a good deal more ornate, the arms of its crossguard done as lions’ paws with ruby claws unsheathed, but both swords had grips of finely tooled red leather and gold lions’ heads for pornmels.

“You have done good work, Master Mott,” Lord Tywin told the armorer. “My steward will see to your payment. And remember, rubies for the scabbards.”

He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.

Its scabbard was made of cherrywood, gold, and oiled red leather, studded with golden lions’ heads. The lions had ruby eyes, she saw

Joff gave him a sharp look. “You... yes, a dagger to match my sword, good.” He nodded. “A... a gold hilt with rubies in it. Dragonbone is too plain.

He knelt to offer the huge blade to Joffrey, hilt first; points of red fire winked from ruby eyes on the pommel, a chunk of dragonglass carved in the shape of a grinning skull.

The candlelight woke fires in the rubies that decorated the bodice of Cersei’s mourning dress as well.


A Feast for Crows
At least I will not be expected to don mourning for Tyrion. I shall dress in crimson silk and cloth-of-gold for that, and wear rubies in my hair.

a golden lioness crouched upon each shoulder; a maned lion crested the greathelm beside his head. Upon his chest lay a longsword in a gilded scabbard studded with rubies, his hands folded about its hilt in gloves of gilded mail.

In the light from the firepit the red and black ripples in the blade almost seem to move, but the woman in grey had eyes only for the pommel: a golden lion’s head, with ruby eyes that shone like two red stars.

“Deny it all you want. That sword says you’re a liar. Are we supposed to believe the Lannisters are handing out gold and ruby swords to foes?

So that's every ruby mention covered 88 in total, fitting the initial premise. Let's explore some specific examples and look for meanings.

A Dance With Dragons

onyx and opal, tiger’s eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond, and a green pearl. I could live for years on his rings, Tyrion


23/23 Lannister rubies fitting the pattern.

Puzzles

There's one Targaryen ruby quote that hasn't been given an explanation for;

"You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.” Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing."

So it's a non-Lannister ruby - there must be House Targaryen, fire or blood. There's no fire or blood, so they can be eliminated, leaving something that's significant to House Targaryen. The only answer can be prince that was promised is a Targaryen - either Jon or Dany, confirming what the witch said about the Aerys/Rhaella blood-line. This was very interesting as it seemed like a puzzle - I knew there had to be a Targ in there, because the pattern is so strong elsewhere, and it helps argue that this pattern is not a coincidence, and there's some thought behind it. There were 4-5 that I thought had a 'puzzle element' to them, in total - the rest were solid and obvious.

The next question is - what is the purpose of this - the overall meaning?

Lannister ruby meaning

Looking through the Lannister rubies, they are also concerned with Lannister pomposity and wealth. There is one 'puzzle' example, with Pycelle, and that is from the small council meeting discussing the debt the crown owes to Lannisters. With the Boros example, gold is mentioned. The rest are pure Lannister wealth.

This link to rubies shows a superficial aspect to the Lannisters, something insincere. They have taken the old Targaryen throne with lies, money and insincerity. Joffrey is fake with regards to his authenticity. Their ruby pattern is smaller and less dominant than the Targayen pattern, which might be seen as more authentic, the pattern links rubies linked to their defining House words.

Targaryen ruby meaning.

Given the size of the ruby pattern, there must be a central message of the whole thing. House Targaryen, fire and blood, the house words - being linked by a common denominator. If you collect all the mentions of fire or blood in the books, there's no pattern - so the center of this is connection is the ruby. So why a ruby and what does it represent?

House Targaryen is linked to rubies through Rhaegar, but that would have no meaning, and the link isn't strong enough throughout the books, to warrant being at the heart of a pattern like this. I don't think the ruby means Rhaegar.

My personal take on what the ruby represents & why...

The most prominent ruby-wearer is Melisandre. She is sometimes 'subbed' for a ruby, as Jon is with blue roses. The fact a ruby is being repeatedly linked to fire & blood might signify that she's a Targ or Targ decendant.

There's lots of evidence to argue that Mel could be daughter of Shiera Seastar and Bloodraven. That would make Mel a descendant of House Targaryen and give her King's blood and 'blood of the dragon', which might be highly significant down the line. I think this is what the code is there to convey - a Mel-Targ connection.

This is the first time we meet Mel, and look at the order of the code... Targ, fire & blood, with Mel as the 'Targaryen'. Targ, fire & blood is in the same order in the first Rhaegar quote as well.

Lady Melisandre, her deep voice flavored with the music of the jade Sea. “You ought take more care.” As ever, she wore red head to heel, a long loose gown of flowing silk as bright as fire, with dagged sleeves and deep slashes in the bodice that showed glimpses of a darker blood"


It's worth mentioning that sapphires and rubies seem to be the only gems with an overarching pattern, which fits the theme of ice & fire nicely.

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While this is a lot more in depth, the ruby code itself – meaning that rubies symbolize fire and blood and therefore House Targaryen – was already "cracked" a while back:

As for the Lannisters, I think their relation to the rubies is best summed up in the exchange between Tywin and Tobho Mott:

“...cherrywood for the scabbards, bound in red leather and ornamented with a row of lion’s-head studs in pure gold. Perhaps with garnets for the eyes...”
“Rubies,” Lord Tywin said. “Garnets lack the fire.”

Mott, an outside observer, thinks that garnets would be the appropriate red gem to signify House Lannister. But this doesn't do for Lord Tywin who, dating back at least to his attempt to marry Cersei to Prince Rhaegar, has tried to elevate the status of House Lannister beyond just lords of the Westerlands. In other words, Mott thinks they are garnets while Tywin tells him they are rubies.

Be that as it may, the Lannisters are not royalty, not in truth. Cersei, as Regent, as well as Joffrey and Tommen all ruled under the banner of House Baratheon – whose claim stems from the Targaryen dynasty, though Robert would tell it you it came from his war hammer. Both are true. Yet the Lannisters try to project a royal majesty which they do not in truth possess. Which interestingly mirrors the "false self" idea put forth in the sapphire thread, btw.

Much in the same way that garnets "lack the fire" – again, to an outsiders POV garnets are the appropriate red gem to represent House Lannister – the Lannister's lack the magical blood of the Targaryens. This is another possible way to read Tywin's words. Though this is subject to change if the Lannisters possess dragon blood via A+J=C&J/T or from their surprising Lannister ancestor. If the latter is true, my money is on Daeron the Drunkard's feeble-witted daughter, fwiw. Clink on the preceding link for more on that discussion.

I'm not 100% clear on what you're saying in the conclusion. But if it's simply that the reason Mel wears the ruby is because she's a secret Targaryen – not a precise term, but she's Aegon IV's granddaughter – I completely agree. I think GRRM hid it quite well by making her a fire priestess, which makes it easy to miss dismiss all of her associations with fire and the color red.

After realizing that rubies = fire & blood with Lady Gwyn's help, I vaguely recall reasoning that Mel's ruby was just reinforcing the rubies = fire part. But once you presented all of the B+S=M evidence, a lot of things started making sense.

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While this is a lot more in depth, the ruby code itself – meaning that rubies symbolize fire and blood and therefore House Targaryen – was already "cracked" a while back: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/88235-what-is-the-rhaegar-ruby-theory/page-3#entry4697064

When ive said cracked, it's regarding the premise, that every single ruby has the keywords very close to it, showing a purposeful and solid ruby pattern - and being able to apply the code. The example I used was that the code seems to confirm the prince that was promised is a Targaryen. That's the 'code' that's been uncovered, not the idea that Ruby= fire and blood. :)

ETA - and yeah i saw a post by Lady Gwyn on that thread that got me thinking initially - you both did some good ruby work.

The code approach is slightly different in as much as it's not so concerned with the symbolism of fire & blood, but the repetition of how these are sat side by side with the ruby as the common denominator. The strength of the correlation sends a message - what exactly is this common denominator supposed to represent? Perhaps at the heart of it is Mel and her maybe secret. Ruby fire and blood over and over - Mel and House Targaryen being linked indirectly, but with some strength. The notion of Mel being at the heart of all the ruby fire and blood mentions is a new take on the ideas from that ruby thread, a new meaning and reason for the symbolism you pointed out.

As you say Mels ruby might be indicative of her Targ blood, and that's what i think of the correlation Ive shown - it's a more complicated extension of that. Mels ruby makes more sense now, like you concluded.

It's really interesting what you say about Lannisters being fake with the rubies etc, as I said in the OP the Lannister rubies were there to obscure the dominant Targ pattern, they had to be set aside because they weren't the 'real' pattern, Targs and rubies was. I need to think more about Lannisters and rubies at some point, youve got me interested.

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I think wealthy people that like red tend to wear rubies.

I don't think that's disputed, but when they do there's a Targ a Lannister, fire or blood around. There's enough mentions of people like those in Qarth, who dont have a Targ/Lann association as such, that still fit. There's also poor places, like north of the wall, which get a ruby mention which still correlates - as we saw with Qorin halfhand.

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Good analysis yolkboy, J Star, Lady Gwyn and all others. With the sapphire code the examples were plenty, but this is not the case with Ruby code. In my opinion Ruby simply is equivalent to fire & blood, and not house Targaryen in general. Just like sapphires mean a secret and not a particular deceiver. Both descibe a notion, not a person. This way, a ruby can be connected to Targs, Rh'llor, Mel and loosely even with the Lannisters.



Also sapphires and ruby matching the ice and fire parallel is not entirely convincing. Other than the color of course. But that also depends on interpretation (ice = preserve = preserve knowledge = secrets ; fire = destroyer = fire and blood, et cetera).


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Good analysis yolkboy, J Star, Lady Gwyn and all others. With the sapphire code the examples were plenty, but this is not the case with Ruby code. In my opinion Ruby simply is equivalent to fire & blood, and not house Targaryen in general. Just like sapphires mean a secret and not a particular deceiver. Both descibe a notion, not a person. This way, a ruby can be connected to Targs, Rh'llor, Mel and loosely even with the Lannisters.

Also sapphires and ruby matching the ice and fire parallel is not entirely convincing. Other than the color of course. But that also depends on interpretation (ice = preserve = preserve knowledge = secrets ; fire = destroyer = fire and blood, et cetera).

:)

I definitely do not agree that rubies = Targaryen examples are lacking. But even if they were, the concepts of fire and blood are thematically inseparable from the Targaryens or their House. So, even if you didn't have the eight or so mentions of Rhaegar's rubies, you could infer that rubies = Targaryens from the number of times ruby + fire and/or blood shows up in the text.

When ive said cracked, it's regarding the premise, that every single ruby has the keywords very close to it, showing a purposeful and solid ruby pattern - and being able to apply the code. The example I used was that the code seems to confirm the prince that was promised is a Targaryen. That's the 'code' that's been uncovered, not the idea that Ruby= fire and blood. :)

ETA - and yeah i saw a post by Lady Gwyn on that thread that got me thinking initially - you both did some good ruby work.

The code approach is slightly different in as much as it's not so concerned with the symbolism of fire & blood, but the repetition of how these are sat side by side with the ruby as the common denominator. The strength of the correlation sends a message - what exactly is this common denominator supposed to represent? Perhaps at the heart of it is Mel and her maybe secret. Ruby fire and blood over and over - Mel and House Targaryen being linked indirectly, but with some strength. The notion of Mel being at the heart of all the ruby fire and blood mentions is a new take on the ideas from that ruby thread, a new meaning and reason for the symbolism you pointed out.1

As you say Mels ruby might be indicative of her Targ blood, and that's what i think of the correlation Ive shown - it's a more complicated extension of that. Mels ruby makes more sense now, like you concluded.

It's really interesting what you say about Lannisters being fake with the rubies etc, as I said in the OP the Lannister rubies were there to obscure the dominant Targ pattern, they had to be set aside because they weren't the 'real' pattern, Targs and rubies was. I need to think more about Lannisters and rubies at some point, youve got me interested.2

1) The identity of Mel and the PtwP are both meant to very significant in my opinion, so I'm not sure either of them can really be at the heart of the ruby symbolism by itself. Actually, I think the theories are mutually beneficial. The rubies = Targaryen hypothesis tests out extremely well in both cases; i.e., B+S=M and the Rhaegar Ruby Theory. I think it means we have been reading the ruby symbolism correctly.

I think it's the issue of Targaryen blood and/or identity that is at the heart of the ruby symbolism. The Mel reveal will be huge. The PtwP will be huge. I wonder if there will be anything else.

2) You might find butterbumps! helpful when it comes to the nature of the Targaryen - Lannister parallels.

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:)

I definitely do not agree that rubies = Targaryen examples are lacking. But even if they were, the concepts of fire and blood are thematically inseparable from the Targaryens or their House. So, even if you didn't have the eight or so mentions of Rhaegar's rubies, you could infer that rubies = Targaryens from the number of times ruby + fire and/or blood shows up in the text.

What I meant was that Ruby can represent the notion of "Fire and Blood" and thus may encompass all - Targs, Mel and Lannisters to some degree. But yes, "Fire and Blood" is easily associated with Targaryens the most, so I see your point there.

But I notice the first point you wrote in reply to yolkboy above. Yes, the theories do seem to be mutually relying on each other, one more or less validates the other. I also am not much knowledgable about Targ-Lann parallels, but if convincing parallels do exist, then for me this theory is fully convincing,. :)

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There was a thread here around that theorized rubies as an allegory for deception, iirc...


It stated that whenever rubies were mentioned there was some kind of lie or deception around, which seems particularly telling if we consider the theory about sapphires representing secrets.



It's not a surprise that rubies keep being mentioned around Lannisters and Targaryens (or Melisandre), since they are deeply involved with lies and such.


Melisandre states a bullshit after another, Tywin lies a lot, Illyrio, Xaro Xhoan Daxos... all of them are deeply involved with deception. And they are the tip of the iceberg.


Since you conveniently wrote a detailed list of all the ruby mentions it will be easier to track down all of them to see if they fit a pattern... up to a generic first read I think that deception seems incredibly involved when reading about Targ rubies more than the Lannisters' ones with the notable exception of Rhaegar's rubies who look more prophetic than anything else.


It doesn't surprise me that much, since House Targaryen itself seems built on lies, to some extent.



Really interesting and well organised thread.


I'll be sure to check it from time to time^^


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Yolkboy, you truly have a beautiful mind.

Thanks LM, but it's actually more like Davos' half rotten onion. :ack:

1) The identity of Mel and the PtwP are both meant to very significant in my opinion, so I'm not sure either of them can really be at the heart of the ruby symbolism by itself. Actually, I think the theories are mutually beneficial. The rubies = Targaryen hypothesis tests out extremely well in both cases; i.e., B+S=M and the Rhaegar Ruby Theory. I think it means we have been reading the ruby symbolism correctly.

:cheers: I hope so. I mean at the least the OP shows how strong the correlations are, fitting both interpretations, which as you say, work for each other. We seem to be on a similar wavelength about a few things JS, and some of your recent postings have been very interesting to me.

Mel's potential reveal might be huge, given it might be her Kings blood thats needed to wake up Jon. That's one of the reasons her being Targ-blooded would be so vital in a physical sense, and why it's being kept such a secret. Remember the S+B=M came from ssm's, so what's in the text to support will be hidden deep. Meaning it might be a big one.

BTW, regarding the ruby thread you were involved in, Lady Gwyn's post, where she categorized rubies, said Lannisters and wealth. Withthat in mind, look at the Lannister rubies - every one is about opulance - rubies amongst expensive helms etc etc. The first one doesnt seem to fit initially, with Pycelle at the small council meeting - but IIRC that meeting concerned, among other things, how much the crown owed the Lannisters. (No time to check this). But yeah, Lannister rubies are used for decadence as Lady Gwyn said - it's superficial - whereas the targ ruby connection is deeper, it's fire and blood, it's part of them - underlined by the metaphors regarding Rhaegars rubies at the moment the House fell. It's interesting that Dany hasn't worn a ruby yet (IIRC), her crown is jade, ivory and onyx. Maybe the message is that Targaryen, as a House, lost it's identity on the Trident.

There was a thread here around that theorized rubies as an allegory for deception, iirc...It stated that whenever rubies were mentioned there was some kind of lie or deception around, which seems particularly telling if we consider the theory about sapphires representing secrets.

I heard about this, apparently is dead or something. Would like to have read it. Although I doubt it would have been as uniformed as Lannister wealth or Ruby, fire & blood, but there might be some link to deceit. As JS mentioned, the Lannister connection might be underlining their rise to power using lies.

PS this new quoting system is terrible!!!

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1 I heard about this, apparently is dead or something. Would like to have read it. Although I doubt it would have been as uniformed as Lannister wealth or Ruby, fire & blood,

2 As JS mentioned, the Lannister connection might be underlining their rise to power using lies.

1 Absolutely. I also think that your post is more organised, but there's no guarantee that these two theories mutually exclude themselves. Since I like both, I want to confirm these!

2 It could very well be, I mean their origins come down to Lann the Clever!

It gotta be said however that if rubies necessarly imply deception, these rubies could highlight some more recent lies.

The first two that come into my mind are Joffrey's true parentage or Tywin's lies... but there should be more as well.

I'd like to play the devil's advocate examine all your citations to see if they fit into the lie pattern, guess it'll take some days.

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Can we expect a sapphire code next? Regardless, I think you ignored some ruby instance that didn't fit any pattern... ;)

The only ruby mentions omitted are the multiples of ruby ford, I explained in the tab that they are inherently Targaryen, so there was no point. I don't think that's a fair claim you're making when you don't give an example of one Ive missed.

If I have missed one, which I dont think so, please post it and substantiate it. I have ruby/rubies collated and I checked every one. I know JS also has rubies collated so I don't think I would frikkin' omit any that didnt fit.

There's already a sapphire code....

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Well done yolkboy! Nicely organized, I don't believe you missed a thing :)



I was noticing as I was reading the compilation of quotes that the Lannister rubies are almost always trappings of wealth... then I saw that you brought that up.


You're right, that first council meeting with Pycelle is where Ned found out how in debt the crown was to the Lannisters. I'd have to agree with you and JS that there could be some message here about Lannisters attempting to buy their status as quasi-royals by displaying the symbols of royalty. Either that or it's the "surprising Lannister ancestor" at work.



An observation about the "puzzle" quote with Mel- she is addressing Stannis who has Targ blood, not to mention her own. I think that strengthens the PtwP connection. Also-- I'm sure you're aware of the various theories about Illyrio. I wonder if his rubies can be seen to support any of them?



Lots of food for thought here.


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Well done, yolkboy... Nicely written and beautifully presented



I would like to add a brilliant essay by Queen of Winter for PTP thread. It concerns rubies too, and I think some of you will find her findings interesting...



Also, I have been working on jewelry code of my favorite Stark girl, and silver/moonstones dualism regarding she-wolf... When I am done, I will ask you what you think of it, since according to this, you are an expert...

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The only ruby mentions omitted are the multiples of ruby ford, I explained in the tab that they are inherently Targaryen, so there was no point. I don't think that's a fair claim you're making when you don't give an example of one Ive missed.

If I have missed one, which I dont think so, please post it and substantiate it. I have ruby/rubies collated and I checked every one. I know JS also has rubies collated so I don't think I would frikkin' omit any that didnt fit.

There's already a sapphire code....

Fair enough, I appologize - I did a quick search in kindle, and it seems you did map all instances.

However, I do think the pattern described is somewhat "made to fit", I do agree nonetheless, that rubies are used in "fire" themes and sapphires in "ice" themes, but the usage is more flexible and not as strict as "nearby keywords". Surely, if the an "ice" or "fire" theme is being referenced other "theme" instances besides gemstones will be referenced as well (fire, blood, Targ, ice, Stark, etc).

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2) You might find butterbumps! helpful when it comes to the nature of the Targaryen - Lannister parallels.

Oh, I guess the really abridged version is that the Lannisters envy the power the Targs had and tend to emulate them.

But just a note-- garnets tend to have the strongest blood references; it's what's associated with Ghost, and it's what's used to depict blood (the Bolton's finery is spattered with garnets representing blood). I realize that you're making a case for adjacencies, but it's really garnets rather than rubies (and garnets actually are bloodred; rubies are more fuchsia).

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yolkboy, that's quite an effort you took. I'm not sure I agree with the idea of Mel being Targ descendant, but you've made a fascinating case.





Oh, I guess the really abridged version is that the Lannisters envy the power the Targs had and tend to emulate them.




Like how Targs established whole incest thing, and Lannisters try to imitate them (Tywin-Joanna, Jaime-Cersei) with much less success :P



On a serious note, can you please post a link to your analysis? I'd be interested in reading it.


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But just a note-- garnets tend to have the strongest blood references; it's what's associated with Ghost, and it's what's used to depict blood (the Bolton's finery is spattered with garnets representing blood). I realize that you're making a case for adjacencies, but it's really garnets rather than rubies (and garnets actually are bloodred; rubies are more fuchsia).

I agree with this especially on color and gemstone symbolism in general, but as far as the adjacencies go notice that in the quotes above there are seven similes involving rubies. Of the seven, five are rubies&fire, two are rubies&blood, In addition there seems to be a strong "heart" association with rubies, with Mel's ruby consistently portrayed as pulsing or throbbing (like a weird tell-tale heart?) and Rhaegar's breastplate rubies positioned so nicely above his "black heart". I think it's fair to say that rubies= fire + blood, while as Lord Tywin so nicely said: "Garnets lack the fire" and are strongly associated with blood alone.
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