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Naming a Bastard


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#1 Max of Castamere

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 03:02 PM

Would Jon Arryn consider it an insult that ned named his bastard Jon? Wouldn't he think it more of a complement if it was a true Stark and not a Snow?



#2 cocoalover1956

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 03:25 PM

It depends on the person I guess. Lollys Stokeworth wanted to name her bastard son after Tywin, but Cersei said she couldn't, so Bronn named him after Tyrion and Cersei tried to have him killed for it. In Dorne, bastard are seen as no different than trueborn children, so to the Dorish it would be a compliment. I don't remember any textual evidence of Jon Arryn's feelings toward Jon Snow.



#3 Okaythen

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 03:31 PM

Would Jon Arryn consider it an insult that ned named his bastard Jon? Wouldn't he think it more of a complement if it was a true Stark and not a Snow?

 

Really interesting question.  Although calling his bastard "Jon" may not be directly insulting it does preclude Ned from calling any of his true born sons Jon which is of course a bigger honour. This is assuming Ned named him- which I do because I believe R+L=J and L or R naming him Jon makes zero sense. 


Edited by Okaythen, 04 October 2013 - 03:32 PM.


#4 Thendel

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 03:35 PM

Jon Arryn was a foster father to Ned: They loved each dearly, and Jon probably knew that Ned meant naming one of his sons after him as a sign of affection.



#5 bloodsteel bitterraven

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 03:37 PM

Would Jon Arryn consider it an insult that ned named his bastard Jon? Wouldn't he think it more of a complement if it was a true Stark and not a Snow?

 

No because when Jon was born, Ned only had one son.  If he gave his trueborn children other names and then named his bastard Jon, that might have been insulting.



#6 Minsc

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 03:45 PM

In Dorne, bastard are seen as no different than trueborn children, so to the Dorish it would be a compliment.

Do we have any real evidence for that?  Seeing how the Sand Snakes don't count seeing how Oberyn is a special case and doesn't have any trueborn children to compare them to.



#7 The Wolves

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 03:46 PM

Also there are ancestors who are named Jon in house Stark

#8 Aeternum

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 03:46 PM

At the time Lyanna gave birth to Jon, there weren't any other Stark kids around. Robb was a newborn baby in Riverrun, far away from Ned and his situation. He was the first baby that Ned actually met. In a sense, Jon was Ned's "firstborn".

 

So, no, I seriously doubt Jon Arryn would feel insulted about this. Also, it's a pretty common Northern name.

 

What's more interesting is where the other ASOIAF bastards got their names from. Was it Robert who named Edric Storm, and for whom? I'm pretty sure that Gendry was named by his mother. But what about Mya Stone?

 

And what about Ramsay? I assume his mother named him, but his name sounds fairly typical for Northern lords (we already have Rickard, Roger, Rodrick, Roose, etc.) and not really like a mud-farming serf. Sure, "Ramsay" doesn't exactly sound like aristocracy, but neither is it "Pate".


Edited by Aeternum, 04 October 2013 - 03:51 PM.


#9 Minsc

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 03:51 PM

What's more interesting is where the other ASOIAF bastards got their names from. Was it Robert who named Edric Storm, and for whom?

Well, when he meet Edric Dayne we discover that Ned is often used as a diminutive for Edric thus I would expect that Edric was named for Ned.



#10 Aeternum

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 03:53 PM

Well, when he meet Edric Dayne we discover that Ned is often used as a diminutive for Edric thus I would expect that Edric was named for Ned.

 

You'd think that Robert would be able to tell apart "Eddard" and "Edric" after spending his whole adolescence around Ned Stark, but then again, it's Robert we're talking about.

 

For all we know, he completely forgot the kid and just had Varys give him a name.


Edited by Aeternum, 04 October 2013 - 03:53 PM.


#11 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 04:00 PM

You'd think that Robert would be able to tell apart "Eddard" and "Edric" after spending his whole adolescence around Ned Stark, but then again, it's Robert we're talking about.
 
For all we know, he completely forgot the kid and just had Varys give him a name.


You replied to someone who was talking about Edric Dayne, who has nothing to do with Robert. Edric Storm, Robert's bastard, was never referred to as Ned. Edric Storm was likely named by his mother.

I wonder if Ned knew the difference between Robb and Robert after spending his whole adolescence around Robert Baratheon.

#12 Minsc

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 04:00 PM

 

You'd think that Robert would be able to tell apart "Eddard" and "Edric" after spending his whole adolescence around Ned Stark, but then again, it's Robert we're talking about.

You do realize that Robb is likely named after Robert, despite there name not being exactly the same.  Thus, it was probably the same situation with Edric and Eddard.



#13 Aeternum

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 04:10 PM

You replied to someone who was talking about Edric Dayne, who has nothing to do with Robert. Edric Storm, Robert's bastard, was never referred to as Ned.

 

The post I replied to said that both Eddard Stark and Edric Dayne were nicknamed "Ned", and concluded that Edric Storm was also named after that "Ned" connection (even though nobody actually calls Edric Storm that).

 

For all we know, Edric Storm was named after some random relative of his mother's.

 


I wonder if Ned knew the difference between Robb and Robert after spending his whole adolescence around Robert Baratheon.

 

 

Sarcasm doesn't fit you, bro.



#14 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 04:17 PM

The post I replied to said that both Eddard Stark and Edric Dayne were nicknamed "Ned", and concluded that Edric Storm was also named after that "Ned" connection (even though nobody actually calls Edric Storm that).

True enough, that post was very unclear.
 
 

Sarcasm doesn't fit you, bro.

I'm not your bro. Also, sarcasm is my specialty.

#15 cocoalover1956

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 04:17 PM

Do we have any real evidence for that?  Seeing how the Sand Snakes don't count seeing how Oberyn is a special case and doesn't have any trueborn children to compare them to.

Bastardry is not as big a stain in Dorne as it is in the other regions. Whatever insult might come from naming your bastard after someone is lessened or nonexistent. 



#16 Aeternum

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 04:21 PM

True enough, that post was very unclear.
 
 I'm not your bro. Also, sarcasm is my specialty.

 

Calm down, bro.



#17 Minsc

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 04:24 PM

 

The post I replied to said that both Eddard Stark and Edric Dayne were nicknamed "Ned", and concluded that Edric Storm was also named after that "Ned" connection (even though nobody actually calls Edric Storm that).

The Ned connection suggests that there is some type of similarity between the names Eddard and Edric (similar to Robert and Robb or Rickard and Rickon) thus suggesting the connection of Edric Storm being named after Eddard Stark despite their names not being exactly the same.



#18 NomadicDirewolf

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 05:49 PM

i guess it depends on both the father and the person who the kids named after. Ned naming his bastard jon would be taken as a compliment by Jon Arryn, seeing how from we have heard, he was a good, honourable man, and would be less easy to get offended, especially as he knew ned meant it as a compliment, especially given the fact that ned raised him among his own family, and gave jon higher position than most bastards have in westeros. On the other hand, if it someone naming there bastard tywin, or cersei (picking on the lannisters i know) then they'd probably take issue with it, because there more easily offended and care more about there prestige than some other houses do.