The Last Chance for Honor: Rereading Jaime

[Blede]

Jaime Lannister has perhaps the dubious honor of being the most divisive character in the entire saga. The purpose of this thread is to analyze and understand his character, and his arc. We will examine and discuss his POV chapters one by one (and also other POVs' chapters which prominently feature him).

The rules are the usual.

Don't analyze future chapters (references or foreshadowings to future events are okay, but focus on the present and past chapters).

Mantain a calm demeanor during the discussion, we're all friends here !

Don't snipe with someone you disagree with - it's boring for everyone else and spoils the thread. State your opinion, give your evidence and agree to differ.

Show the support in the text for your views.

This thread is not the black book of Jaimeism, nor an application for his canonization. Be objective.

Your opinions, comparisons and parallels with other POVs, characters, literary works of other authors and historical facts/figures are very warmly appreciated, as are corrections for any possible mistake I might (who am I kidding, I WILL) make.

I will post summaries for every chapter about once per week.

And now, it begins.

Chapter links:

-AGOT Bran II (The things I do for love.)

-ACOK Catelyn VIII (There are no men like me. There's only me.)

[Blede]

Bran II, AGOT - Reader, meet Jaime

Overview
Bran is left alone in Winterfell when everyone rides off with King Robert for a last boar hunt before departing. He reflects on his dreams of knighthood (end especially on the Kingsguard). He tries to say his farewells to the people of the castle, but it's too hars, so he ends up playing sticks with his still nameless direwolf. He grows bored of it, so he decides to climb the broken tower in the abandoned First Keep, as he had done many times before. During the climb he overhears a man and a woman talking about his father and King Robert. He looks inside. The two kiss, and start having sex. Bran recognizes the woman as Queen Cersei. She sees him, and screams. He slips, and almost falls. The man (now recognized as her brother, Ser Jaime Lannister) pulls him on the ledge. He inquires about his age, and shoves him down the tower.

Observations
-"Why would he leave the seat of his power ?" "Duty. Honor." Family, Duty, Honor are the words of House Tully. And it is indeed Catelyn who convinced Ned to accept Robert's offer.
-Jaime and Cersei really like rape fantasies...

Analysis
Jaime the player
At first glance, Jaime appears a shiny, amoral fool, dismissive of every possible danger his sister points out. But his analysis of the situation is good. He correctly evaluates Ned as honorable and not very good at the Game, and ultimately not dangerous for them like Littlefinger and the Baratheon brothers. He understands Lysa knows nothing, and won't lift a finger to oppose them on her own (she only does it on Littlefinger's instructions).
And yet, he's not ambitious. He doesn't like power, it just bores him.

The path to the tower
Bran describes with copious details how to climb the broken tower.

He knew two ways to get there. You could climb straight up the side of the tower itself, but the stones were loose, the mortar that held them together long gone to ash, and Bran never liked to put his full weight on them.
The best way was to start from the godswood, shinny up the tall sentinel, and cross over the armory and the guards hall, leaping roof to roof, barefoot so the guards wouldn't hear you overhead. That brought you up the blind side of the First Keep, the oldest part of the castle, a squat round fortress that was taller than it looked. Only rats and spiders lived there now but the old stones still made for good climbing. You could go straight up to where the gargoyles leaned out blindly over empty space, and swing from gargoyle to gargoyle, hand over hand, around to the north side. From there, if you really stretched, you could reach out and pull yourself to the broken tower where it leaned close. The last part was the scramble up the blackened stones to the eyrie, no more than ten feet, and then the crows would come around to see if you'd brought any corn.

That striked me as a possible metaphor for Jaime's story. He always relied on being Tywin's son, and the best swordsman, but they were weak foundations: House Lannister has been slowly falling apart after Joanna's death (the mortar long gone to ash), and after his imprisonment he wasn't the formidable fighter he was before. And he paid for that with his right hand.
Then he had the dream on the weirwood stump (start from the godswood), and when he returned to King's Landing no one recognized him (the guards wouldn't hear you). He went to the black cells, which were part of Maegor's original Red Keep (the First Keep, oldest part of the castle), where only the worst criminals and Varys' little birds dwelled (only rats and spiders lived there now). He freed Tyrion (the gargoyle leaning over empty space, he was sitting on the ledge above the door of the Great Hall the first time we met him, and he is repeatedly compared to a gargoyle), and now he's going to meet Stoneheart (from gargoyle to gargoyle, around to the north side, gargoyles are made of stone, and she is Catelyn Stark). After that, he might be forced to flee, after a difficult battle (if you really stretched, you could pull yourself) to Harrenhal (the broken tower where it leaned close, Harrenhal is a ruin, and it is close to where Jaime is now). The blackened stones to the eyrie seem to suggest an involvement in tha Vale/Sansa storyline, and the crows coming around could be Jaime ending at the Wall.
Also, Bran hears Jaime and Cersei talking when he's swinging from gargoyle to gargoyle, and Jaime finds out about Cersei's infidelity (to him) after freeing Tyrion (from gargoyle) and before meeting Stoneheart (to gargoyle).
Or maybe a cigar is just a cigar, and I'm reading too much into it.

The knight in the stories vs the monster

According to Bran, Jaime looks just like the knight in the stories, the only on of the three Kingsguards in Winterfell, but Robb promptly inform him of his taint: he's the Kingslayer, he shouldn't count as a Kingsguard anymore.

Thoros of Myr says "sometimes knights are monsters". And indeed Winterfell is described as a maze in this chapter, and like Daedalus's maze, this one has the monster: the Kingslayer, who flings the child from the tower. But he doesn't like it (The man looked over at the woman. "The things I do for love," he said with loathing). The Minotaur is half bull, half man. The Kingslayer is half monster, half knight. Which part will prevail ?

[A wilding]

The ending of the chapter is the one that made many readers sit up and realise that this series was going to be something out of the ordinary.

Not because, having spent some time making us like Bran, GRRM has a villain attempt to murder him, to show us just how evil the villain is. But because, even at that early stage, he is laying the groundwork to show that this villain is actually more than just a two dimensional bad guy, with that "he said with loathing".

[Danelle]

The ending of the chapter is the one that made many readers sit up and realise that this series was going to be something out of the ordinary.

Not because, having spent some time making us like Bran, GRRM has a villain attempt to murder him, to show us just how evil the villain is. But because, even at that early stage, he is laying the groundwork to show that this villain is actually more than just a two dimensional bad guy, with that "he said with loathing".

I agree.

Until that point, all the previous chapters, the prologue, Bran I, Catelyn I, Daenerys I, Eddard I, Jon I , Catelyn II and Arya I mostly have an intruductory role in the plot: we are given crucial details about westeros, their way of life, we are told that they have septas and septon, the Northmen have a culture that is different to the rest of westeros, that their politcal system reminds of a feudal society, and of course we are given details about the characters as well.

Ned is honourable, Catelyn believes in family, Robb is king, Theon is arrogant, Bran is adorable, Sansa is pretty, Arya is a tomboy, Jon is a bastard-outsider. Daenerys's earlier chapter takes us to another continent, a different place from Essos and yet her story is closely connected tot he fate of House Stark.

Bran II isn't about worldbuilding and introducing characters.

We have already see who Bran is, and we know about him and his family.

Bran II is about showing the reader how cruel and gritty the story can be.

The reader knows who Jaime is, the reader is told about his reputation and now the reader is about to discover of all the things that Jaime is capable of.

In Cat I there is a reference to Jaime,

"The queen's brothers are also in the party," she told him.

Ned grimaced at that. There was small love between him and the queen's family, Catelyn knew. The Lannisters of Casterly Rock had come late to Robert's cause, when victory was all but certain, and he had never forgiven them. "Well, if the price for Robert's company is an infestation of Lannisters, so be it. It sounds as though Robert is bringing half his court."

I think that Jaime the Kingslayer is first mentioned in Daenerys's chapter.

The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

Dany had no agents, no way of knowing what anyone was doing or thinking across the narrow sea, but she mistrusted Illyrio's sweet words as she mistrusted everything about Illyrio. Her brother was nodding eagerly, however. "I shall kill the Usurper myself," he promised, who had never killed anyone, "as he killed my brother Rhaegar. And Lannister too, the Kingslayer, for what he did to my father.

We are given a brief summary of the most important events that took place during RR and Jaime has a special mention as being the man who killed Dany's father. Viserys expresses his desire to kill Robert and Jaime for what they did to his family.

The Targaryen siblings hate Jaime for what he did to them.

The next reference is in Eddard I, when the King arrives.

There came Ser Jaime Lannister with hair as bright as beaten gold, and there Sandor Clegane with his terrible burned face.

Jaime is a man that Ned can easily recognise, even after so many years.

When Robert demanded to visit the crypts, Cersei protested but

The queen had begun to protest. They had been riding since dawn, everyone was tired and cold, surely they should refresh themselves first. The dead would wait. She had said no more than that; Robert had looked at her, and her twin brother Jaime had taken her quietly by the arm, and she had said no more.

It is said that there is a close bond between twins and in this scene it is evident that while the queen is willing to oppose to her husband's wishes, she can be easily calmed after her brother interferes. At that point we see two pairs that are connected by Robert Baratheon.Ned and Lyanna and Jaime and Cersei. While Jaime is Robert's brother in law, Ned and the Starks are the relatives that Robert wants.

Later, Jon gives his opinion of Jaime

He was more interested in the pair that came behind him: the queen's brothers, the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. The Lion and the Imp; there was no mistaking which was which. Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered "Kingslayer" behind his back.

Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.

This is a great contrast to Ned's view of the Lannisters. Jon appears to be genuinely impressed by the Kingslayer.

Then in Cat II Lysa sends a letter

"Lysa says Jon Arryn was murdered."

His fingers tightened on her arm. "By whom?"

"The Lannisters," she told him. "The queen."

Cat believes her sister, while Ned realises that the Lannisters pose a threat. He mentions the time when Lord Rickard went to KL.

"My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king. He never came home again."

"A different time," Maester Luwin said. "A different king."

"Yes," Ned said dully

It is interesting to note that the danger that King Aerys once posed, has been replaced by the Lannisters.

The Lannisters, and especially Jaime, appear to be dangerous and threatening both to Targaryens and Starks.

At this point the Lannisters appear to be the villains of the story but so far they haven't done anything bad.

Killing Bran because he discovered the incestuous relationship nad commiting the crime in the name of love, places not only the Lannisters but the entire story in an interesting context.

Several questions arise:

Will Bran survive? Why two of the most beautiful people in the kingdoms have an incestuous affair? Does the King know? Will Bran survive the fall? Who has fathered the Queens children? Will the incest ever be revealed?

Jaime pushing Bran from the window is the point where the story really begins.

[Arya kiddin']

Firstly, good job Blede, I'm fairly new and am glad to be part of a re-read right from the start. :)

<snip>

Yes, this is exactly the kind of forum behavior that is needed here. Only if people in the general forum were this understanding.......

That striked me as a possible metaphor for Jaime's story. He always relied on being Tywin's son, and the best swordsman, but they were weak foundations: House Lannister has been slowly falling apart after Joanna's death (the mortar long gone to ash), and after his imprisonment he wasn't the formidable fighter he was before. And he paid for that with his right hand.
Then he had the dream on the weirwood stump (start from the godswood), and when he returned to King's Landing no one recognized him (the guards wouldn't hear you). He went to the black cells, which were part of Maegor's original Red Keep (the First Keep, oldest part of the castle), where only the worst criminals and Varys' little birds dwelled (only rats and spiders lived there now). He freed Tyrion (the gargoyle leaning over empty space, he was sitting on the ledge above the door of the Great Hall the first time we met him, and he is repeatedly compared to a gargoyle), and now he's going to meet Stoneheart (from gargoyle to gargoyle, around to the north side, gargoyles are made of stone, and she is Catelyn Stark). After that, he might be forced to flee, after a difficult battle (if you really stretched, you could pull yourself) to Harrenhal (the broken tower where it leaned close, Harrenhal is a ruin, and it is close to where Jaime is now). The blackened stones to the eyrie seem to suggest an involvement in tha Vale/Sansa storyline, and the crows coming around could be Jaime ending at the Wall.
Also, Bran hears Jaime and Cersei talking when he's swinging from gargoyle to gargoyle, and Jaime finds out about Cersei's infidelity (to him) after freeing Tyrion (from gargoyle) and before meeting Stoneheart (to gargoyle).
Or maybe a cigar is just a cigar, and I'm reading too much into it

Hmm. This part is very interesting, certainly a fresh way to look at the description of Winterfell. The beauty is, the narrative leads here to Jaime being a monster, but later in the story the metaphor you describe supposedly kick starts him trying to redeem himself of his past crimes.

his is a great contrast to Ned's view of the Lannisters. Jon appears to be genuinely impressed by the Kingslayer.

Jon's opinion for Jaime in my opinion should not be taken too seriously, he was a child at that time. It was the same thing like Stannis getting impressed from Tywin when he visited KL as a boy.

At this point the Lannisters appear to be the villains of the story but so far they haven't done anything bad.

That has always struck me as odd, as it was intentional on Martin's part. So many Stark POV's in the start, and only one Lannister POV. ]

Killing Bran because he discovered the incestuous relationship nad commiting the crime in the name of love, places not only the Lannisters but the entire story in an interesting context

That was the coldest thing from this character. Doing such a despicable crime with a dialogue that does not suggests least bit of guilt, but rather justifies the deed as having been done for love. There are plenty of negative characters in these books, but there would be few who'd feel no remorse at all, now or ever for pushing an innocent child off a tower to kill him.

[Lady Arya's Song]

Really happy to find a Jaime re-read. Thanks Blede.

I try to notice when Martin subtly puts the entire story in a scene but I had not caught Bran's tower climb and how it relates to Jaime...really well done!

I remember being just shocked when Jaime pushed Bran out of the window. I actually read this book way back in 1996 when it first came out. I was just shocked as I could not recall another author doing such a think in a fantasy. I finished the first book and the second one and just thought I will never read this author again..lol Seventeen years later, I can't think of another series that even touches it.

I have hoped that someone would do a re-read on Jaime because I find so many parallels between Jon and Jaime..really glad you have taken this on. Once again thanks.

[Cloud]

I always found the last part of this chapter to be very interesting, especially on rereads (during the first read-through, it was only shock & horror but with hindsight there's potential for analysis).

Bran saw her face. Her eyes were closed and her mouth was open, moaning. Her golden hair swung from side to side as her head moved back and forth, but still he recognized the queen.

He must have made a noise. Suddenly her eyes opened, and she was staring right at him. She screamed.

Everything happened at once then. ' The woman pushed the man away wildly, shouting and pointing. Bran tried to pull himself up, bending double as he reached for the gargoyle. He was in too much of a hurry. His hand scraped uselessly across smooth stone, and in his panic his legs slipped, and suddenly he was failing. There was an instant of vertigo, a sickening lurch as the window flashed past. He shot out a hand, grabbed for the ledge, lost it, caught it again with his other hand. He swung against the building, hard. The impact took the breath out of him. Bran dangled, one-handed, panting.

Faces appeared in the window above him.
The queen. And now Bran recognized the man beside her. They looked as much alike as reflections in a mirror.
"He saw us," the woman said shrilly.
"So he did," the man said.
Bran's fingers started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down.

"Take my hand," he said. "Before you fall."

Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up to the ledge.

"What are you doing?" the woman demanded.
The man ignored her. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. "How old are you, boy?"
"Seven," Bran said, shaking with relief. His fingers had dug deep gouges in the man's forearm. He let go sheepishly.
The man looked over at the woman. "The things I do for love," he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.
Screaming, Bran went backward out the window into empty air. There was nothing to grab on to. The courtyard rushed up to meet him.
Somewhere off in the distance, a wolf was howling. Crows circled the broken tower, waiting for corn.

I found this part particularly interesting, since initially Bran fell because he panicked - he slipped and was on the verge of death until Jaime temporarily "saves" him. I find it strange that Jaime pulls Bran back up, steadies him, before doing the cold-hearted push instead of flinging Bran the moment he was dangling.

The reason for the save could be interpreted two ways.

The first: Jaime's initial reaction upon realising that Bran saw their incest was to save him, not kill him. The scene allows good contrast between him and Cersei in terms of their first reaction - Cersei seems to object to Jaime saving Bran (""What are you doing?" the woman demanded."), whilst Jaime doesn't seen the least bit flustered that he was discovered. Or at least, he does not show on the surface what he was feeling or thinking at that time (with that being said, I would definitely like a Jaime POV for this moment alone). He knows that Bran saw everything, but he decides to help Bran instead of breaking Bran's grip.
After steadying Bran on the windowsill, Jaime proceeds to ask Bran his age. Of all questions to ask, Jaime picks age. He doesn't ask about what Bran saw, or what Bran heard etc, even though he had every opportunity to.
After knowing Bran's age, Jaime looks over to Cersei and most-likely during this brief moment considers his options. He pushes Bran.

The second: Jaime's intial reaction was to kill Bran but he wanted to make Bran suffer the pain of momentary relief before sending him to his doom. It could be that Jaime wanted to make Bran believe that he was being saved, only to cruelly destroy that belief.

I think the reasonable option would be the first interpretation, since from his POVs Jaime does not seem to be the type to purposely give someone the hope of surviving but only to kill them a few seconds later.

It's also interesting to note that Bran describes Cersei & Jaime's appearances as looking "as much alike as reflections in a mirror". However in this same scene, we get so much difference between Cersei and Jaime in terms of their actions & reactions. Cersei is panicky & fearful whilst Jaime doesn't care. Cersei worries whilst Jaime is indifferent. Cersei vocally objects to Jaime's actions.

It's like early foreshadowing of their differences in personality - significant because my first impression was that Jaime's personality would be identical to Cersei's.

Questions - Why does Jaime inquire about Bran's age? Why would he even care about Bran's age if he was going to push him?

Could be an insignificant observation but I'm still interested and curious.

"The things I do for love," (Jaime) said with loathing.

Immediately before Jaime's horrendous act, we get the phrase "with loathing" that makes us hesitate for a split-second and gives a very very tiny indication that Jaime does not like what he's doing. However this small phrase is hardly something for the reader to care about, especially after witnessing a child getting pushed from a window.

There are some different interpretations on this quote alone that I considered. The "loathing" part could be referring to -

- Jaime loathing the fact that he's about to murder a child to hide his incest (probably the first impression for most readers)

- Jaime loathing the fact that he's yet again, keeping his incest a secret (we do find out later that he wants to make his relationship open)

- Jaime loathing his own immorality, loathing himself and his inability to consider another option at that moment and must murder a child

- Jaime loathing society's in-acceptance of his relationship with Cersei (unlikely but possible)

- Jaime loathing Bran for stumbling upon them and "forcing" him to resort to this act (also very unlikely)

The loathing part also gives indication that Jaime knows what he's doing is wrong, but is going to carry on with it anyways.

[A wilding]

Questions - Why does Jaime inquire about Bran's age? Why would he even care about Bran's age if he was going to push him?

Could be an insignificant observation but I'm still interested and curious.

I think that it is clear that he is facing up to exactly what he is about to do. He wants to know just how young the child he is about to (try to) murder is. Which ties in with the "with loathing" comment he makes.

He is, after all, someone who does his own dirty work. Unlike his father.

[Blede]

Catelyn VIII, ACOK

Overview
While everyone celebrate for Robb's and Edmure's victories, Catelyn and Brienne share a silent dinner in the Great Hall of Riverrun. News of the supposed death of Bran and Rickon had just arrived. They talk of them, and of Arya and Sansa. Catelyn then tells Brienne to come at midnight to talk with the Kingslayer. She visits her father, Lord Hoster, who is sleeping. She talks to him for a while, then she waits until Brienne comes. She intimidates the gaoler, and enters Jaime's cell. He mocks and threatens her at first, but in the end they agree on answering each other's questions. Cat asks him of the princes' real parentage, and of Bran and his fall. Jaime inquires about his family's wellbeing, and the strategic situation. He then tells her how her father-in-law Rickard and her former fiancé Brandon were murdered by the Mad King Aerys. Drunk, he then mocks Ned for his infidelity to Cat, and she asks Brienne for her sword.

Observations
-Jaime not only confirms Tyrion's version of the Valyrian dagger's story, but also Littlefinger's boasts about Catelyn's maidenhead. Too bad she doesn't pick up...

Analysis
Cat-Jaime chat as a summoning ritual
As a D&D player, I couldn't help but notice some similarities between the Cat-Jaime chat and some summoning spells. In those spells the caster pays a price to summon the creature, then they must agree on a task for the creature to perform and the price the caster has to pay for it. Cat sent Jaime the wine (the offering), then they negotiated the task and price (I'll answer your questions if you answer mine). I'm not an expert of mythology, but I think many stories about oracles and (duh) demon summonings went that way.

Sexual undertones
There are a lot of sexual undertones in the chat scene: Cat repeatedly comments about Jaime's beauty, he offers to have sex with her (though I don't think he was serious, he only wanted to annoy her, plus he's faithful to Cersei) and says Brandon was like him. Since we later find out he was interested in her (when he went to Riverrun to be potentially betrothed to Lysa) I wonder if Cat liked him too. Was she already engaged to Brandon at the time ?

Knight's honor
Jaime seems very proud of his respect of knightly conventions. He prides of always doing his killing himself (very First Men, and Ned-like, by the way...), he accuses Robb of having used a "craven's trick" at the Whispering Wood, he killed Karstark's sons "in a fair fight, in the heat of battle" like any other knight would have done, blames Aerys of not protecting the realm ("To Aerys Targaryen, the Second of His Name, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm !"), stays true to his lady love.

Under his "shit for honor" and not caring about everything, Jaime still sees himself as a worthy knight. His only act not conforming to knightly vows (in his eyes) is shoving Bran out of that window, and we see him trying to rationalize it ("he was not innocent, he was spying on us").

He just doesn't take his Kingsguard vows seriously. We'll see how that changes.

Chains/Rattleshirt, Cat/Mance and Brienne/Ygritte: parallels between Jaime and Jon
Jaime is chained to the wall, and when Cat visits him he tells her "Are my bracelets heavy enough for you, or did you come to add a few more ? I'll rattle them prettily if you like." After this chapter, Cat frees him of his chains, and Jaime leaves with Brienne (captor/potential love interest). Later (in Catelyn I ASOS), Catelyn offers to wear his irons as punishment for having freed him.
When Jon is captured by the Free Folk, he's not chained, but he's taken by Rattleshirt. When he convinces Mance of his loyalty, he and Ygritte (captor/love interest) leave Rattleshirt's band for Tormund's. Later (in ADWD), Mance takes Rattleshirt's identity.

[Blede]

Regarding "he said with loathing", I found a possible explanation. In Eddard III, Robert decrees Lady's execution.

All Ned could do was take her in his arm and hold her while she wept. He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please."

The king looked at them for a long moment, then turned his eyes on his wife. "Damn you, Cersei," he said with loathing.

Robert decides Lady's death, then hears Sansa's and Ned's pleas. He looks at Cersei, and then he says with loathing. Martin's choice of words is never casual, so I think something similar happened for Jaime.

Jaime decided immediately Bran's death, thinking Cersei wants it too ("What are you doing ?" the woman demanded.), but he pulls Bran on the ledge. He asks his age, hoping that Cersei would change his mind. He looks at her, she says nothing. He understands she wants Bran dead (or so he thinks), "The things I do for love," he said with loathing. Shove.

So Jaime was loathing Cersei, for wanting Bran dead (he thought). Only later he starts blaming himself.

[A wilding]

Hey, good catch that Robert also does something for Cersei "with loathing".

It might be considered an early demonstration of how fragile her methods to power are, in that both Robert and Jaime chafe at them.

[The Young Black Dragon]

Not much to add except so far great work! Jaime might just be my favorite character so I am loving this reread.

[Cloud]

Something that caught my attention in this section was the wine symbolism. Wine has a variety of biblical and mythical connotations, some of which relate to the events in this Catelyn & Jaime exchange.

Wine is considered a symbol of “good faith/honesty” in some religious texts, specifically where sacrifices and offerings are made to gods. In this case the presence of wine sets the scene up for an exchange of “truth” between the two characters, as reinforced by this quote:

"Oh, you'll find mine modest enough. Your turnkey tells me nothing but vile lies, and he cannot even keep them straight. One day he says Cersei has been flayed, and the next it's my father. Answer my questions and I'll answer yours."

"Truthfully?"

"Oh, it's truth you want? Be careful, my lady. Tyrion says that people often claim to hunger for truth, but seldom like the taste when it's served up."

Note that prior to this agreement, the wine that Cat sends Jaime remains untouched (Catelyn – “I see you had no taste for the wine I sent you.”). Once they agree to give each other truth, Jaime starts to drink the wine (“But first, if you'd be so kind . . . the wine. My throat is raw.”) thereby starting off their exchange for truth. After Jaime takes his first drink of the wine, he proceeds to ask Catelyn for her first question ("Your first question, Lady Catelyn?"). The wine here, to me, symbolises the truth behind the information that is exchanged – that both parties (in this case Jaime especially) are honest in what they’re saying.

Wine references throughout the scene:

When Catelyn initially enters the cell, she remarks to herself that “the flagon of wine stood beside the door, untouched”. The untouched wine refers to the mutual distrust between the two characters.

"I see you had no taste for the wine I sent you."

"Such sudden generosity seemed somewhat suspect."

Here Jaime confirms his misgivings about the wine, which reflects his distrust to Catelyn. Moments later and after exchanging a few words with Catelyn, he decides to trust her by drinking the wine.

"I am strong enough to hear anything you care to say."

"As you will, then. But first, if you'd be so kind . . . the wine. My throat is raw."

Catelyn hung the lamp from the door and moved the cup and flagon closer. Jaime sloshed the wine around his mouth before he swallowed. "Sour and vile," he said, "but it will do." He put his back to the wall, drew his knees up to his chest, and stared at her. "Your first question, Lady Catelyn?"

Jaime describes the wine as “sour and vile” after tasting it, before remarking that “it will do”. Perhaps this reflects his inner feelings about his situation and how Catelyn is the only way he can hope to obtain information about the war. His attitude towards the wine could represent his expectations about the truth he’s going to receive – it will be “sour and vile” because it’s coming from the enemy, but “it will do” because “sour/vile” information is still better than no information. Also, Jaime drinking the wine may indicate that he no longer suspects Catelyn of lying to him – that he is willing to trust the information that she gives.

After confirming the incest, and after Jaime finds out about his family’s situation:

Jaime drank some more wine. "Ask your next."

…

"I seldom fling children from towers to improve their health. Yes, I meant for him to die."

He drinks more wine before revealing more truth, particularly about him pushing Bran. By this point, the text gets into the habit of referring to the wine every time Jaime is about to reveal one of his dark secrets.

"And when he did not, you knew your danger was worse than ever, so you gave your catspaw a bag of silver to make certain Bran would never wake."

"Did I now?" Jaime lifted his cup and took a long swallow. "I won't deny we talked of it, but you were with the boy day and night, your maester and Lord Eddard attended him frequently, and there were guards, even those damned direwolves . . . it would have required cutting my way through half of Winterfell. And why bother, when the boy seemed like to die of his own accord?"

Here where Jaime reveals the important fact that he was not responsible for hiring the assassin, he drinks again. The wine symbolises the honesty behind his words. When Catelyn inquires about the dagger:

“Lannister poured, drank, poured, and stared into his wine cup. "This wine seems to be improving as I drink it. Imagine that. I seem to remember that dagger, now that you describe it. Won it, you say? How?"

Jaime confirms Tyrion’s story about the dagger, and that LF was lying.

Catelyn: “Are you trying to deceive me?" Somewhere there was a trap here.

"I've admitted to shoving your precious urchin out a window, what would it gain me to lie about this knife?" He tossed down another cup of wine.

…

Jaime drank some more wine. "What's a brother's life when honor is at stake, eh?" Another sip. "Tyrion is clever enough to realize that your son will never consent to ransom me."

…

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. "So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. … Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other." He took a healthy swallow of wine and closed his eyes for an instant, leaning his head back against the patch of nitre on the wall. "I was the youngest man ever to wear the white cloak."

More drinking – each drink is followed/preceded by another revelation. The more Jaime drinks, the more secrets he reveals. At this point, the “truth” exchange between Cat and Jaime is forgotten. We shift into Jaime’s story about Brandon and Rickard’s deaths.

Finally after the exchange is done, we get:

Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."

"No, that wasn't it." Jaime Lannister upended the flagon. A trickle ran down onto his face, bright as blood. "Snow, that was the one. Such a white name . . . like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths."

The reference to snow & the kingsguard cloaks (“pure” white objects) is contrasted with the trickle of wine that runs down Jaime’s face “bright as blood” as he finishes his “confession”. Jaime’s face is stained by the wine (like blood), which could be mirrored with the fact that his past & identity are stained by blood (Kingslaying, serving Aerys, oathbreaking). It also alludes to the fact that he personally “stained” the history of the Kingsguard and all it stood for by killing Aerys.

If wine = truth, Jaime’s face = his identity, Kingsguard/snow/white = honour, innocence and righteousness. Then this final moment suggests that Jaime’s identity (face) is constructed and stained by the dark/bloody truths (wine) that he keeps from the world.

His remark about the kingsguard cloaks suggests that the concept of the Kingsguard and its knightly vows are also “stained”.

Overall this exchange between Catelyn & Jaime seems like a huge insight into the flaws in the constructs/views held by the populace (e.g. the idea that knights protect the innocent, the concept of vows and when they conflict).

By the way, Blede, great find about the "loathing" part - it does provide a solid parallel between Jaime & Robert's reactions towards Cersei.

ETA: Whilst we're going through references of Jaime in other characters' POVs, I think I recall one of Tyrion's chapters in aGoT where we have the three Lannister siblings interacting right after Jaime pushes Bran. Blede, do you consider doing an analysis of that chapter as well?

Also, I was rereading this chapter and the following quote had me rethinking:

I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act.

Can someone clarify who Jaime is talking about when he refers to being "loved by one" for a kindness he never did?
On my first read-through and on my rereads I thought he was responding to Catelyn's comment about him killing Aerys to avenge Brandon/Rickard. Basically, I thought he was joking about the possibility of how Catelyn might "love" him for the kindness (killing Aerys to avenge the Starks) that he didn't do.

But now I don't think my interpretation makes sense anymore. Who else could he be talking about, and what is this "kindness" that he never did?

[Viserys_The Transformed]

Robert Baratheon is the one who loves him for the kindness he never did by killing Aerys Targaryen.

[Sansa_Stark]

I always found the last part of this chapter to be very interesting, especially on rereads (during the first read-through, it was only shock & horror but with hindsight there's potential for analysis).

I found this part particularly interesting, since initially Bran fell because he panicked - he slipped and was on the verge of death until Jaime temporarily "saves" him. I find it strange that Jaime pulls Bran back up, steadies him, before doing the cold-hearted push instead of flinging Bran the moment he was dangling.

The reason for the save could be interpreted two ways.

The first: Jaime's initial reaction upon realising that Bran saw their incest was to save him, not kill him. The scene allows good contrast between him and Cersei in terms of their first reaction - Cersei seems to object to Jaime saving Bran (""What are you doing?" the woman demanded."), whilst Jaime doesn't seen the least bit flustered that he was discovered. Or at least, he does not show on the surface what he was feeling or thinking at that time (with that being said, I would definitely like a Jaime POV for this moment alone). He knows that Bran saw everything, but he decides to help Bran instead of breaking Bran's grip.

After steadying Bran on the windowsill, Jaime proceeds to ask Bran his age. Of all questions to ask, Jaime picks age. He doesn't ask about what Bran saw, or what Bran heard etc, even though he had every opportunity to.

After knowing Bran's age, Jaime looks over to Cersei and most-likely during this brief moment considers his options. He pushes Bran.

The second: Jaime's intial reaction was to kill Bran but he wanted to make Bran suffer the pain of momentary relief before sending him to his doom. It could be that Jaime wanted to make Bran believe that he was being saved, only to cruelly destroy that belief.

I think the reasonable option would be the first interpretation, since from his POVs Jaime does not seem to be the type to purposely give someone the hope of surviving but only to kill them a few seconds later.

It's also interesting to note that Bran describes Cersei & Jaime's appearances as looking "as much alike as reflections in a mirror". However in this same scene, we get so much difference between Cersei and Jaime in terms of their actions & reactions. Cersei is panicky & fearful whilst Jaime doesn't care. Cersei worries whilst Jaime is indifferent. Cersei vocally objects to Jaime's actions.

It's like early foreshadowing of their differences in personality - significant because my first impression was that Jaime's personality would be identical to Cersei's.

Questions - Why does Jaime inquire about Bran's age? Why would he even care about Bran's age if he was going to push him?

Could be an insignificant observation but I'm still interested and curious.

Immediately before Jaime's horrendous act, we get the phrase "with loathing" that makes us hesitate for a split-second and gives a very very tiny indication that Jaime does not like what he's doing. However this small phrase is hardly something for the reader to care about, especially after witnessing a child getting pushed from a window.

There are some different interpretations on this quote alone that I considered. The "loathing" part could be referring to -

- Jaime loathing the fact that he's about to murder a child to hide his incest (probably the first impression for most readers)

- Jaime loathing the fact that he's yet again, keeping his incest a secret (we do find out later that he wants to make his relationship open)

- Jaime loathing his own immorality, loathing himself and his inability to consider another option at that moment and must murder a child

- Jaime loathing society's in-acceptance of his relationship with Cersei (unlikely but possible)

- Jaime loathing Bran for stumbling upon them and "forcing" him to resort to this act (also very unlikely)

The loathing part also gives indication that Jaime knows what he's doing is wrong, but is going to carry on with it anyways.

Good post. I keep seeing people comment that "CERSEI WANTED BRAN SPARED" and its the biggest bullcrap misconception ever.

[The Young Black Dragon]

Also, I was rereading this chapter and the following quote had me rethinking:

Can someone clarify who Jaime is talking about when he refers to being "loved by one" for a kindness he never did?

On my first read-through and on my rereads I thought he was responding to Catelyn's comment about him killing Aerys to avenge Brandon/Rickard. Basically, I thought he was joking about the possibility of how Catelyn might "love" him for the kindness (killing Aerys to avenge the Starks) that he didn't do.

But now I don't think my interpretation makes sense anymore. Who else could he be talking about, and what is this "kindness" that he never did?

Robert Baratheon is the one who loves him for the kindness he never did by killing Aerys Targaryen.

Jaime is referring to Tyrion, and the whole Tysha situation. The second half of that quote is reffering to Aerys.

[GoldenHand at SnowCastle]

Jaime is referring to Tyrion, and the whole Tysha situation. The second half of that quote is reffering to Aerys.

Yes. This.

I have always believed that Jaime meant Tyrion when he said that he was loved by one for a kindness (the Tysha thing; after all, Tyrion assumed that Jaime found him the whore to please him) he never did.

[GoldenHand at SnowCastle]

btw I really enjoyed this thread! Jaime is one of my favorite characters in the story, and a re-read through the previous books definitely helps to understand him better and see that GRRM has planned a long time for the reveal of Jaime as "not really a bad guy" we later see in ASOS and AFFC.

Another interesting thing was that upon first read, I had always assumed that despite the incest nature of the relationship, Cersei and Jaime were both genuinely in love, and equally devoted to each other... until we got Jaime's POV later in ASOS after he lost his hand and seemed suddenly waken from his "blind" love. Then we began to explore with him the truth under their relationship in a new perspective, and found out with him that maybe Cersei didn't really LOVE him as he loved her, and that he had been constantly used and manipulated to do a lot of things for her. And then we went like "omg poor Jaime!"

But in re-read, we can actually see this from wayyyyy back in AGOT, and continued to find this true in ACOK. So we were ( as least I was) as blind as Jaime at the beginning of the story!

[RedtheWarrior]

Hey guys, just want to say that I love this re read. Jamie's one of the most interesting characters I think.

What strikes me about Jamie in the Catelyn chapter, is how much he REALLY wants to tell the truth, about his relationship with Cersei, about killing Aerys, about everything. He even readily admits to trying to kill Bran. I think when he killed Aerys he genuinely thought he was doing the right thing, and the fact that he got branded a villain for it has really messed him up. He is now happy to play the villain yet he still has a pride and sense of self that is not so dependent on how others see him 'Believe what you will Lady Stark, but if I had wanted your Bran dead I would have killed him myself.'

This desire to be heard is something I notice a lot with Jamie. I also feel kind of bad for him that no one every really thanked him for killing the Mad King. It's like Qhorin Halfhand said, one man's honour is worth nothing compared to protecting the realm, or something like that. Still doesn't excuse him for trying to kill Bran though! Damned GRRM for making me like a character who did something like that!!!!