Scott Lynch’s The Republic of Thieves.. SPOILERS

[MinDonner]

Yeah, the whole idea that one painting somehow confirms Patience's story is a little baffling. Our genius heroes don't think Bondsmagi could have... painted a new one for just this purpose?

[Inigima]

Re. the redhead from Patience's painting, my suspicion isn't that there's anything truly that weird about the reveal, just that Locke's fixation on redheads, and thus, his latching onto the first redhead he met, is some sort of artifact from his previous consciousness. That is the sort of thing that would likely drive Sabetha away, at least temporarily.

Can't be just the redhead thing. He tried to sleep with other redheads at the brothel and couldn't do it.

I was really disappointed in this book. Big letdown after the long wait.

[Avalon]

Yeah, the whole idea that one painting somehow confirms Patience's story is a little baffling. Our genius heroes don't think Bondsmagi could have... painted a new one for just this purpose?

I was disappointed that Sabetha ended up leaving at the end of the novel. I knew that it was coming, given that this was only the third in a multi-book series, but it seemed to negates all the progress they had made in their relationship during the course of the book. I'll be interested to see what footing they start out on when next they meet. Also, does anyone have any ideas on what the significance of the "Republic of Thieves" storyline was? I got that it was supposed to show how Locke and Sabetha became involved with each other, but did that really need to be stretched out across an entire book? I thought that the way the flashbacks were handled in RSURS had the virtue of ending about half-way through the book, so that the main storyline could progress uninterrupted. The parallel storyline in ROT seemed more like a way for the author to indulge in his desire to tell more stories of the Gentleman Bastards before their decimation, but IMO this indulgence, as others in this thread have said, often came at the expense of killing the momentum of the main storyline.

[Altherion]

Yeah, the whole idea that one painting somehow confirms Patience's story is a little baffling. Our genius heroes don't think Bondsmagi could have... painted a new one for just this purpose?

To be fair, Jean disbelieves the entire story. However, it is somewhat puzzling that both Locke and Sabetha (who make their living by constructing elaborate scams) are so distraught by what Patience says. As far as I can tell, she does not present them with any real proof of what she says. She knows Locke's secret name, but the magi got it out of Jean and Locke know this. The reader knows that the Lamor Acanthis was a real archmage because we have the telepathic conversation between Coldmarrow and Foresight discussing this, but Locke and Jean are not privy to that discussion. And indeed, the magi could have made the painting any time in at least the two months before it was presented and possibly longer than that since they must have found Sabetha earlier.

From Locke's point of view, there's isn't any proof whatsoever for anything Patience says. The only thing that comes to mind is that she has no motivation for lying. She claims revenge at the end, but it is a really, really strange form of revenge to rescue a man dying of a painful disease for the sake of leaving confused about his origins.

[Howdyphillip]

I was really disappointed in this book. Big letdown after the long wait.

I would like to put forth the theory that there is a good possibility that the wait had more to do with your letdown than the content of the book. I didn't have any time at all between books, and this one if my favorite.

I do believe that I will hold the minority opinion in liking this one over the first, as objectively I think that Lies is a better book. There was just too much in this tome that I felt a personal connection to.

[MinDonner]

The parallel storyline in ROT seemed more like a way for the author to indulge in his desire to tell more stories of the Gentleman Bastards before their decimation, but IMO this indulgence, as others in this thread have said, often came at the expense of killing the momentum of the main storyline.

I didn't see the flashbacks as an indulgence; I get the impression that it's been Lynch's intention all along to give us the full backstory in drips and drabs throughout the series, not just a whim to carry on writing about Camorr. I mean, after all that and we still don't know exactly why Locke and Sabetha broke up in the first place? There's gotta be more coming.

[Howdyphillip]

I didn't see the flashbacks as an indulgence; I get the impression that it's been Lynch's intention all along to give us the full backstory in drips and drabs throughout the series, not just a whim to carry on writing about Camorr. I mean, after all that and we still don't know exactly why Locke and Sabetha broke up in the first place? There's gotta be more coming.

That, and the mysterious death of Chains... That is the story I am most anxious to hear.

I believe that I read somewhere that the flashbacks will be set before the start of book 1 in every other book, and that they will be set before the start of the story in the others. Does anyone know if this is true?

If it is, that means we won't get more off the deep back story for awhile.

[ljkeane]

Yeah, the whole idea that one painting somehow confirms Patience's story is a little baffling. Our genius heroes don't think Bondsmagi could have... painted a new one for just this purpose?

In fairness Sabetha does spend a large part of the book, both in Kartain and in the flashbacks looking for ways to avoid being in a relationship with Locke so while it's not iron clad evidence perhaps it's something she was looking to be convinced about.

As an aside did anybody else find Locke's obsession with Sabetha a little creepy? Ok he's in love with her and everything but she left him and he spent 5 years physically incapable of sleeping with another woman? That seems a little over the top.

[trickster]

To be fair, Jean disbelieves the entire story. However, it is somewhat puzzling that both Locke and Sabetha (who make their living by constructing elaborate scams) are so distraught by what Patience says. As far as I can tell, she does not present them with any real proof of what she says.

..<snip>

..<snip>

As an aside did anybody else find Locke's obsession with Sabetha a little creepy? Ok he's in love with her and everything but she left him and he spent 5 years physically incapable of sleeping with another woman? That seems a little over the top.

This is why I think there is some truth to Patience's story. Locke and Sabetha's reaction is quite telling. Not only Locke seems to think this quite plausible so does Sabetha. We do not know what/where she was before she came to Shades' Hill. All we know that she was "protected". So she may be the reincarnation of the dead wife of the archedon Lamor Acanthus or just dreading that she is.

Obviously Patience did tell the story to manipulate them. Sabetha does have some mixed feeling about Locke. To her loving Locke means surrender in some respect. But still to run away like that.... :dunno: Also not sure whether the woman in the painting just had red hair or did she look like Sabetha. Patience did mention "the likeness is impeccable". But she could be referring to the fact that the painting shows an accurate resemblance to Acanthus and his wife rather than the woman looks just like Sabetha.

What did you guys think of Patience's little prophecy? "Three things must you take up and three things must you loose before you die: a key, a crown, a child. You will die when a silver rain falls". I hope the silver has nothing to do with the Falconer with silver hands/tongue.

[unJon]

I liked the book a lot, but thought it felt a bit like a middle book. It served to introduce Sabetha and set up for future books (e.g, Locke backstory, bondmages disappearing, FrankenFalconer). But the stakes for this book itself seemed smaller. The payoff of the political game just didn't seem dangerous or real. I actually found the plot of the flashbacks to have more nail biting moments and that's given that you know the protagonists will all survive the flashbacks!

Overall I enjoyed the book. I like the series a lot. But it felt a bit like an AFFC book. A pause and a setup or the future.

[Avalon]

I didn't see the flashbacks as an indulgence; I get the impression that it's been Lynch's intention all along to give us the full backstory in drips and drabs throughout the series, not just a whim to carry on writing about Camorr. I mean, after all that and we still don't know exactly why Locke and Sabetha broke up in the first place? There's gotta be more coming.

Drips and drabs would be fine, as opposed to a backstory that takes up around half of a six hundred page novel. It didn't kill the book, but maybe having more of those pages freed up for the main storyline would have allowed for the kind of complexity and climax that we saw in the first book, especially.

I liked the book a lot, but thought it felt a bit like a middle book. It served to introduce Sabetha and set up for future books (e.g, Locke backstory, bondmages disappearing, FrankenFalconer). But the stakes for this book itself seemed smaller. The payoff of the political game just didn't seem dangerous or real. I actually found the plot of the flashbacks to have more nail biting moments and that's given that you know the protagonists will all survive the flashbacks!

Overall I enjoyed the book. I like the series a lot. But it felt a bit like an AFFC book. A pause and a setup or the future.

I definitely agree that ROT was more of a set up or pivot for the rest of the series, rather than the largely stand-alone adventures of the first two books. Though LOLL and RSURS both had sequel hooks, Patience's prophecies and foreshadowing about Elder Gods/Ancient Powers really gave the impression that ROT is the third part of a larger series. They also gave this book more of an epic fantasy feel (well, that and the increased "presence" of the Bondsmagi), whereas the earlier books in the city either felt more low fantasy (LOLL) or pure adventure fiction (RSURS).

[Inigima]

I would like to put forth the theory that there is a good possibility that the wait had more to do with your letdown than the content of the book. I didn't have any time at all between books, and this one if my favorite.

I do believe that I will hold the minority opinion in liking this one over the first, as objectively I think that Lies is a better book. There was just too much in this tome that I felt a personal connection to.

It's possible, but this is hardly compelling evidence.

[Ser Greguh]

I didn't see the flashbacks as an indulgence; I get the impression that it's been Lynch's intention all along to give us the full backstory in drips and drabs throughout the series, not just a whim to carry on writing about Camorr. I mean, after all that and we still don't know exactly why Locke and Sabetha broke up in the first place? There's gotta be more coming.

Yeah, the gang is, what, 16-17 in TROT and the primary timeline of TLOLL starts when they're 25? Quite a bit happened in those intervening 8-9 years, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lynch continued to give flashbacks to Camorr in every other book, in the pattern he's established thusfar, giving us two more flashback chunks. As a wild-assed guess I'd say the next would deal with the gang's elevation of the confidence scheme to an art form, and the second would deal with their pulling off the early scores mentioned in TLOLL, maybe?

I'm not sure on the timeline of Chains' death, Sabetha and Locke's breakup, and the acquisition of Bug as their newest member, so I'm not sure where they would fit in, though presumably those would be significant plot points as well.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just finished. Enjoyed it. I think that Patience was telling the truth with lots of twist, it's the best way to lie. I do agree with Yagathai that the return of Falconer was a bit comic booky, but, it will be interesting. I sincerely hope Mr. Lynch is able to get The Thorn if Emberlain out in 2014.

:)

[edited to correct grammar]

[unJon]

SSE, "its" is the possessive form of the pronoun it. "It's" is the contraction of it is. :)

[Migey]

Ser Greguh...

They can't be 25 in the present storyline, can they? That seems way too young. I got the image of them as maybe around 30-35... 25 seems way too young for A, Jean to be the massive and unstoppable force he is, and B, them to be old enough to be able to pull off half the respectable roles they need to.

[Inigima]

[edited to correct grammer]

Don't lie to me, you did this on purpose.

[MinDonner]

[edited to correct grammer]

It's spelled "grammar", fyi ;)

[Altherion]

They can't be 25 in the present storyline, can they? That seems way too young. I got the image of them as maybe around 30-35... 25 seems way too young for A, Jean to be the massive and unstoppable force he is, and B, them to be old enough to be able to pull off half the respectable roles they need to.

When Patience is describing Locke's origin, she says that the Black Whisper in Camorr was 23 years ago. Arguing that he is too young to be the mage, Locke tells her that he can't possibly be 30 yet. I don't have TLLL with me, but I think he was around 6 when he joined the Thiefmaker. Thus, Locke is currently 28-29. The others are somewhat older.

[MinDonner]

Yes, I reread LoLL just a few days ago and I'm certain it stated that Locke was still in his 20s.

eta: no-one knows exactly, as his age on joining the Thiefmaker was uncertain, for reasons which are now possibly obvious. But best guess was around 5 or 6 at that time.