Rubyford, what Roose's intention?

[GallowsKnight]

One thing I can't figure out is what was Roose's motives at the Ruby Ford. We know he stole a night's march to surprise the Lannisters but lost. It was an ambitious move but not completely out of nowhere as Robb had commanded him to confront Tywin.

Did Roose want:

1. To win the Ruby Ford and his surprise attack failed

2. To loose the Ruby Ford on purpose, because he was already planning betrayal, much like the latter battle of Duskendale

3. Something inbetween, to lose the battle but preserve his men so that'd he'd be the biggest Northern player in the war

What do you think was going on in the Roose's head?

[Chaircat Meow]

I think you mean the Green Fork.

He was ordered to do 1. but set things up so 3. could happen in case he lost, given the plan had a high degree of risk. If he wasn't following Robb's orders he would have been chewed out, or at least had to explain himself and apologize, like he did after Ramsay's antics were known, Duskendale and the Ruby Ford.

[Fightbringer]

roose hadnt betrayed robb yet, i think that didnt come until after the battle of the blackwater or after he married jeyne, most likely both happened around about the same time.

The purpose of the Battle of the Green Fork was primarily a distraction so that Robb and his men could move on jaime lannister at riverrun. Robb didnt expect Roose to win, but obviously if he did so much the better, the only way he was really going to win would be by doing something daring like stealing a nights march, which wouldnt risk losing too many men at the same time. When it became apparent that they wouldnt win, he tried to retreat and keep as many men as possible for later in the war, which would probably have been robbs orders if he was losing

[shearstone]

I'm in two minds about Roose's actions at the Green Fork. For instance the Night march was stupid even Tyrion comments as such and all it really does is tire out his own side, however we don't know if it was Roose who suggested it or it was an idea of the other lords and Roose saw no reason to refuse them.

We know Roose likes to play with men so this could have been another example of this where Roose wanted to test himself against Tywin and learn more about the man in how he conducts himself in battle. That's why he commits himself so fully in the battle and then after seeing his men rout decides he best retreat or Robb would have his head.

On the other hand I did believe that he was deliberately weakening his rivals in the North in order to improve his position so in essence the Green Fork was a way of bleeding his rivals men whilst preserving his own (Roose suffered minimal losses throughout the war). My main justification for this theory was the death of Lord Hornwood and how quickly Ramsay acted in marrying Lady Hornwood and claiming the Hornwood lands. However when I thought about it more closely I realised that Roose had know way of knowing that Daryn Hornwood was dead so deliberately trying to kill of rival lords didn't bring him any benefit.

[FNF]

I think it's a combination of all three. He was covering all the bases in case things swung Robb's way or Tywin's way.

For example, if the surprise attack was a complete success, then he would have went ahead and routed the Lannisters. However, it wasn't so he chose to, instead of fully committing to a scenario where he may only achieve a Pyrrhic Victory (or as it is known in the asoiaf world, a Tarlic victory) or even lose, he chose to withdraw knowing he still had a decent amount of troops.

[Tywin Manderly]

I think it's a combination of all three. He was covering all the bases in case things swung Robb's way or Tywin's way.

For example, if the surprise attack was a complete success, then he would have went ahead and routed the Lannisters. However, it wasn't so he chose to, instead of fully committing to a scenario where he may only achieve a Pyrrhic Victory (or as it is known in the asoiaf world, a Tarlic victory) or even lose, he chose to withdraw knowing he still had a decent amount of troops.

This! :agree:

At that moment Roose was still loyal as far as a Bolton can be loyal to the Starks.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Robb's strategy was a desperate gamble. He split his forces in the face of a superior enemy. Very, very few commanders have ever done that successfully. Even at full strength after gaing Frey support Tywin's host at the Ruby Ford was slightly larger than Robb's at the Twins. Without the Knights of the Vale Robb realized that the only way he could increase the size of his army was to lift the siege of Riverrun and gain the support of the scattered River Lords. But if he took his entire host west Tywin would have marched that way too and he would have been caught between Tywin and Jaime. So Robb had to pin down Tywin. That was Roose's job. And Roose did an excellemt job. He stole a march to try to catch Tywin by surprise. He did not take the bait and rush Tywin's left flank (although Tyrion failed to lure him into the trap). And retreated I'm good order preservimg his army. He retreated all the way up the causeway in case Robb lost. Of course that's when Roose and Walder got a little too close. But after Robb's victory and Tywin's retreat to Harrenhal Roose move up to the Ruby Ford. I don't believe Roose actively sought to betray Robb until after Theon took Winterfell and killed Robb's heirs. He did act after Tywin gained thw support of Tyrell and defeated Stannis at the Blackwater. He began his betrayal before Robb betrayed Walder and before Robb executed Rickard but those events helped Roose.

[juanml82]

I don't think Roose was trying to betray Robb there. He just made a very bad call. While he needed to pin down Tywin Lannister, he also needed to get hostages, Tyrion or Tywin if possible, in case Robb lost at the Whispering Woods - had Robb lost there and the Bolton was unable to get very important hostages, the North would have lost the war due the hostages at KL.

So, he couldn't just pin down Tywin there and, should Robb win, harass him as he retreats and attack him when Tywin crosses the Ruby Ford. He had to present battle. He did it wrong, though. And of course, most likely he put his own men in the safest position, but that's pretty much expected.

[jarl the climber]

I'm not really sure what was going on there. Without a PoV from his side of the battlefeild its hard to say. I've had one poster argue that Tywin should have been able to finish off the entire army rather easily. Things aren't alway that simple, they were fighting by a river and heavy calvary can sink in the mud, so Roose might have retreated to an area where Tywin could not use his heavy calvary [properly but there is no way to prove that. All we know is that he stole a march on the Lannisters, he attacked and his army was at least partially routed but about 2/3 of it managed to escape somehow. He did not seem to really lose many of his own men nor did Tyrion report seeing the Dreadfort banner during the battle that I can remember. Tywin called him cauitious. As far as I can see he did what Robb wanted him to do, his movement was meant to distract Tywin from Robbs true purpose and it seemed to work.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I'm not really sure what was going on there. Without a PoV from his side of the battlefeild its hard to say. I've had one poster argue that Tywin should have been able to finish off the entire army rather easily. Things aren't alway that simple, they were fighting by a river and heavy calvary can sink in the mud, so Roose might have retreated to an area where Tywin could not use his heavy calvary [properly but there is no way to prove that. All we know is that he stole a march on the Lannisters, he attacked and his army was at least partially routed but about 2/3 of it managed to escape somehow. He did not seem to really lose many of his own men nor did Tyrion report seeing the Dreadfort banner during the battle that I can remember. Tywin called him cauitious. As far as I can see he did what Robb wanted him to do, his movement was meant to distract Tywin from Robbs true purpose and it seemed to work.

Once Tywin realized Robb was not with Bolton he had to concered with a possible trap. Roose's orderly retreat could have been bait and Robb's horse was not accounted for. Moreover the neutrality of the Arryns was not guaranteed. I doubt Tywin had scouts up the High Road.

[DavosSeaworthy]

It was a smart tactic by Roose, imagine if it worked and they managed to capture Tywin, Keven, Tyrion, and several other Lords of the Westerlands? It is game over for the Lannisters obviously. The North would have had a very strong bargining position for the release of Sansa and Arya, who was not known to be missing at the time, and could send a head back in retribution for Ned, say Tywin, since Cersei would not have risked harming another Stark for revenge at that point. So you'd have Cersei and Joffery leading the royal side, not exactly a winning team right there.

[KingofSothoryos]

Once Tywin realized Robb was not with Bolton he had to concered with a possible trap. Roose's orderly retreat could have been bait and Robb's horse was not accounted for. Moreover the neutrality of the Arryns was not guaranteed. I doubt Tywin had scouts up the High Road.

Tyrion knew that the Vale was staying out of the war.

I think Roose was following orders. Now who did he put in the vanguard versus who was in the reserve, I'm sure Roose conserved Dredfort men.

[The Mountain That Flies]

Tyrion knew that the Vale was staying out of the war.

Based on what? The last time he was there, Lysa was (ostensibly) claiming the Lannisters had murdered her husband. He'd have no reason to think those feelings had changed, and well into CoK he was still tying to ensure the Vale's neutrality.

[outofthecage]

Didn't Lysa say she wasn't sending anyone from the Vale out to fight the war in the Riverlands? She seemed pretty content to hole herself up in the Eyrie.

[Lord Martin]

Roose was loyal at the Green Fork... but he made sure it was non-Dreadfort men who died. He know that would be an advantage to him later on no matter how the war turned out.

[Buckthorn]

Is it ever mentioned if Roose leads from the rear, like Tywin and Stannis, or if he joins in on the fighting?

[Chaircat Meow]

The simplest explanation for why the lannister pursuit was not extensive, following Roose's defeat, is that lord Tywin wanted to hurry back to help Jaime. This is hinted at in CoK where Edmure mentions Roose was bloodied at the Green Fork, but has 10,000 men as lord Tywin 'failed to pursue.' I think there was an initial pursuit, led by Ser Addam (Tywin's ludicrous armour probably precluded him leading it himself) in which most of the northern casualties were sustained, and the prisoners captured, but it was called off quickly.

Robb appears to have been prepared to sacrifice most of his army in order to have his cover for going to Riverrun, as there was little reason a larger force, with more cavalry, shouldn't have been able to run down a routing infantry force.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Didn't Lysa say she wasn't sending anyone from the Vale out to fight the war in the Riverlands? She seemed pretty content to hole herself up in the Eyrie.

I am but a young girl and know little of the ways of war but I'm sure Tywin was smart enough to know that the Knights of the Vale had no love for the Lannisters and could have been marching down the High Road notwithstanding his son's (the wrong son) reports.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The simplest explanation for why the lannister pursuit was not extensive, following Roose's defeat, is that lord Tywin wanted to hurry back to help Jaime. This is hinted at in CoK where Edmure mentions Roose was bloodied at the Green Fork, but has 10,000 men as lord Tywin 'failed to pursue.' I think there was an initial pursuit, led by Ser Addam (Tywin's ludicrous armour probably precluded him leading it himself) in which most of the northern casualties were sustained, and the prisoners captured, but it was called off quickly.

Robb appears to have been prepared to sacrifice most of his army in order to have his cover for going to Riverrun, as there was little reason a larger force, with more cavalry, shouldn't have been able to run down a routing infantry force.

Non, Tywin didn't learn about Jaime's capture until afyer he pulled back to the Ruby Ford.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I think you mean the Green Fork.

He was ordered to do 1. but set things up so 3. could happen in case he lost, given the plan had a high degree of risk. If he wasn't following Robb's orders he would have been chewed out, or at least had to explain himself and apologize, like he did after Ramsay's antics were known, Duskendale and the Ruby Ford.

Well said.

GRRM has actually addressed this in on of his So Spake Martins.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Roose_Bolton

"Lord Bolton may well have all sorts of things in mind. Whether or not he would act on any of those thoughts is another matter. Roose is the sort of fellow who keeps his thoughts to himself.

And the best sword is the one that cuts both ways, he might tell you. Take the Battle of Green Fork. Had his night march taken Lord Tywin unawares and won the battle, he would have smashed the Lannisters and become the hero of the hour. While if it failed... well, you see what happened. The only way he could lose there would be if were captured or slain himself, and he did his best to minimize the chances of that."