Gurkhal Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 I can see that he's useful to Bob as a hostage, and obviously no one could know the terrible influence he and Cersei have on each other, but I'm still confused why Jon Arryn, Ned and Tywin never pushed for his release. From their different perspectives, they should have seen the sense in it. And when you talk about concessions, isn't it a bit of a concession in itself to marry Tywin's daughter? ETA: How would it weaken the alliance? It would be in Tywin's interest. It would have soiled Jaime so much that he could never rule the Westerlands, or anything else for that matter. Tywin wanted Jaime to rule and not become the most despises person in Westeros' history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya kiddin' Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Robert was very forgiving lazy. Yeah. Fixed that for you. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonin Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 The leaders of the rebellion wished to make the new king appear to be (somewhat) a continuation of the Targaryen rulers. Hence, they kept some/most of the Targaryen institutions, like the Kingsguard, small council, Robert's Targaryen blood, etc... I am not sure how despised Jaime actually was... yes, some called him king slayer.. not to his face.... it is interesting that many people dislike Jaime for killing Aerys - especially, those who had rebelled against Aerys. If he was so despised you would think he would have been challenged to a duel - maybe calling him king slayer behind his back was safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolay Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 I can see that he's useful to Bob as a hostage, and obviously no one could know the terrible influence he and Cersei have on each other, but I'm still confused why Jon Arryn, Ned and Tywin never pushed for his release. From their different perspectives, they should have seen the sense in it. And when you talk about concessions, isn't it a bit of a concession in itself to marry Tywin's daughter? Ned never pushed for his release because following the Sacking of King's Landing and the way Bob was so cavalier about the sack and the murder of the royal family(including the children), Ned and Bob had a falling out, no? Ned got pissed and went south without Bob to first relieve the siege of Storm's End and then to rescue his sister in the Tower of Joy. Bob and Ned were only brought together again by their grief over Lyanna's death, and at this point Ned didn't care about politics at all, he just wanted to take Lyanna's remains back to Winterfell, see his wife, etc. Jon Arryn on the other hand was the one behind the Baratheon-Lannister alliance. I assume he would have considered, not without reason, that keeping Jaime around as a hostage-slash-bodyguard a perk(keep in mind, Jaime killed an old madman that robbed him of his inheritance, Bob though, was his brother-in-law - nobody feared that Jaime might slip into Kingslayer mode again). And yes, marrying Tywin's daughter is a bit of concession, but a mutually beneficial one(anyway who else was Bob going to marry after Lyanna died? Cersei was the most desirable bride in the Realm at that point, a first daughter of the richest Lord around). It allowed to heal the rift between the new royal family and the strongest non-royal house in the realm, the Lannisters. Tywin demanding Jaime back would have just soured the relations between the two houses and wouldn't have had any sort of long-term reconciling effect. That's what I think anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolay Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 The leaders of the rebellion wished to make the new king appear to be (somewhat) a continuation of the Targaryen rulers. Hence, they kept some/most of the Targaryen institutions, like the Kingsguard, small council, Robert's Targaryen blood, etc... I am not sure how despised Jaime actually was... yes, some called him king slayer.. not to his face.... it is interesting that many people dislike Jaime for killing Aerys - especially, those who had rebelled against Aerys. If he was so despised you would think he would have been challenged to a duel - maybe calling him king slayer behind his back was safer. Yeah, exactly. I'm no Jaime fan, even post-"redemption" Jaime, but let's be objective here: a lot of the contempt for Jaime is to a large extent a product of envy and jealousy(excluding the contempt Jaime receives from the likes of Ned Stark, Stannis, Davos, etc.). Jaime the handsome, Jaime the obscenely rich, Jaime the extraordinarily talented in battle, et cetera, et cetera. GRRM makes it quite clear that most nobles and knights and whatnot in Westeros are very hypocritical creatures. Jaime's lack of honor isn't such an issue for them, given that most don't have much honor themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Handle Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Ned never pushed for his release because following the Sacking of King's Landing and the way Bob was so cavalier about the sack and the murder of the royal family(including the children), Ned and Bob had a falling out, no? Ned got pissed and went south without Bob to first relieve the siege of Storm's End and then to rescue his sister in the Tower of Joy. Bob and Ned were only brought together again by their grief over Lyanna's death, and at this point Ned didn't care about politics at all, he just wanted to take Lyanna's remains back to Winterfell, see his wife, etc. Jon Arryn on the other hand was the one behind the Baratheon-Lannister alliance. I assume he would have considered, not without reason, that keeping Jaime around as a hostage-slash-bodyguard a perk(keep in mind, Jaime killed an old madman that robbed him of his inheritance, Bob though, was his brother-in-law - nobody feared that Jaime might slip into Kingslayer mode again). And yes, marrying Tywin's daughter is a bit of concession, but a mutually beneficial one(anyway who else was Bob going to marry after Lyanna died? Cersei was the most desirable bride in the Realm at that point, a first daughter of the richest Lord around). It allowed to heal the rift between the new royal family and the strongest non-royal house in the realm, the Lannisters. Tywin demanding Jaime back would have just soured the relations between the two houses and wouldn't have had any sort of long-term reconciling effect. That's what I think anyway. But Ned did urge Robert to strip Jaime of the white cloak and send him to wall. Jon Arryn argued for a complete pardon, but I don't see why Tywin couldn't have suggested a "middle option". I think Jaime could have succeeded Tywin as Lord Paramount of the Westerlands regardless of the stain of being stripped of the white cloak. The Lannisters rule through fear anyway. ETA: For example, everyone knows that Tywin had Rhaegar's children murdered, but nobody treats him as if he's "stained". At the council meeting in ASOS when they bring it up, Tyrion muses over the fact that none of the council members have the guts to call Tywin out on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willard/Mitt Lannister Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 But Ned did urge Robert to strip Jaime of the white cloak and send him to wall. Jon Arryn argued for a complete pardon, but I don't see why Tywin couldn't have suggested a "middle option". I think Jaime could have succeeded Tywin as Lord Paramount of the Westerlands regardless of the stain of being stripped of the white cloak. The Lannisters rule through fear anyway. See though, that wouldn't work because it would be like rewarding Jaime for the act of killing Aerys. Ned and, I would be willing to bet, most of Dorne, probably Stannis, and all the remaining Targ loyalists would have balked if Jaime's alleged punishment for killing the king he was sworn to protect was to be sent back home and allowed to one day have access to an army, lands, and titles. There is no way that Robert could have made that decision. It would delegitimize him and Jaime and Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Tywin always wanted Jaime back as his heir and his behavior throughout the series showed that he had no qualms about making decisions for his children against their will, and carrying out those decisions. Jaime himself might not have been able to argue with getting the boot after killing the king. We are told that the KG are not allowed to hold any land but this rule does not seem to be set in stone. In AGoT, Robert was intending to name Jaime as Warden of the East and Ned was under the impression that in time Jaime would inherit Warden of the West from Tywin. Can you find the quote? At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall, as Lord Stark urged. He listened to Jon Arryn instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin Manderly Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Yeah. Fixed that for you. :) Hahaha! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckthorn Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 To put it in simple words- he owed Tywin after the Lannisters slaughtered the "dragon spawn" for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodsteel bitterraven Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 I don't think it was ever an option. If Jaime was dismissed as a traitor, he would have to be punished. It was either stay in the Kingsguard or join the Night's Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodsteel bitterraven Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 We are told that the KG are not allowed to hold any land but this rule does not seem to be set in stone. In AGoT, Robert was intending to name Jaime as Warden of the East and Ned was under the impression that in time Jaime would inherit Warden of the West from Tywin. At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall, as Lord Stark urged. He listened to Jon Arryn instead. The title "Warden" is a military title, it has nothing to do with being a lord or owning land. By making Jaime the Warden of the East, he would have been in command of the eastern army. But as Ned explained, at a time of peace the title is only ceremonial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grand old duke of stark Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Three additional reasons: 1) Bravado. Robert was Mr Macho, the Stag who had slain the Dragon with his wa rhammer. Keeping the Kingslayer in his personal guard probably made him look more invulnerable, brave, in charge, not to tampered with etc. And except for that ambitious fool Balon Greyjoy, it worked a treat. 2) Jaime may have slain one king, but he wouldn't dare slay another. In an odd way, having a disgraced Jaime in attendance would also gave Robert a ready target for teasing, bullying, and occasionally treating badly. In the event, that proved to be the case. 3) Robert probably knew that while he was looking merciful and trusting, he was still depriving all-mighty Tywin Lannister of his chosen heir. Knowing how Tywin had held back support when it counted, Robert probably liked pulling Tywin's (proverbial) beard. Also, it is possible that Robert actually knew the real reason (wildfire threat to KL) Jaime killed Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazy Lion Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall, as Lord Stark urged. He listened to Jon Arryn instead. Why did Jon Arryn convince Robert not to dismiss Jaime?Because he believed that dismissing Jaime from the KG would be an insult to Tywin, and they couldn't afford to stomp on the pride of a Lord who is 1) very prickly about his family honor, 2) known to be utterly ruthless towards his enemies, and 3) in command of a large force that wasn't weak from over a year of bloody campaigning. There is no reason to believe Tywin requested Jaime's dismissal from the KG. Yes, that's what he wanted, but openly requesting it would not be in Tywin's character. Outwardly, it would be a terrible disgrace...and despite his words to the contrary, Tywin was very concerned with "the opinions of the sheep." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSnow House Stark Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Well, at that point in time I don't think and KG had ever been released from the KG, it's a for life position. So really that only leaves three options. 1, kill him for forsaking his KG vow, Tywin wouldn't want this. 2, send him to the wall, again why would Tywin want this? 3, pardon him and keep him in the KG. It's the only real option that Tywin could handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickeen Baratheon Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Because, no matter your personal views! Only Ned was a debbie downer about the vows ( Then went on to lie to the realm, to save his family; but, it is bad when a Lannister does it! )Robert probably wanted to reward the one who, kinda handed King's Landing to him. It wasn't Jaime who slaughtered the citizens in the street, that was Tywin. Why wouldn't you want one of the best swordsmen in your Kingsguard? I mean, if he slit Barristan's throat like Bolton suggested then maybe, yes, he could've removed Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 There is no reason to believe Tywin requested Jaime's dismissal from the KG. Yes, that's what he wanted, but openly requesting it would not be in Tywin's character. Outwardly, it would be a terrible disgrace...and despite his words to the contrary, Tywin was very concerned with "the opinions of the sheep." Never made the argument that he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 While it's true Tywin wanted his heir back, I don't think he'd be okay with it being done in a way that brought such disgrace upon the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazy Lion Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Never made the argument that he did. Didn't mean to imply that you had. You simply provided the quote that I used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Didn't mean to imply that you had. You simply provided the quote that I used. Okay cool. :) My mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.