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Can Eddard be blamed for Robb's HORRIBLE decision?


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26 replies to this topic

#1 Robyn El Telram

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:01 PM

The way I see it, Robb really loved his father and looked up to him. I am sure that he modeled himself after his father, no matter if it came to personality, leadership or combat. 

 

Now, jumping into bed with Jeyne was probably what made Robb lose the war and his life. My question is: Why wouldn't he? Surely his father had never said anything about his responsibility to his wife, since Ned himself did the naughty while at war. Even if R+L is true and Eddard was faithful, Robb did not know that. Ned just do not strike me as the type to preach something he himself was unable to do, and too bad of a liar to talk about that stuff if Jon really isn't his kid.

 

People seem to blame Cat, Robb and even Sansa for what happened to Robb, but for once I really think it was Ned's fault. Robb didn't know any better, and his dad should have made it clear that marriage alliances always come first, love second.



#2 Mladen

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:05 PM

The only thing Ned did wrong when it comes to his children is that he didn't teach him that winter is always coming. As for who is guilty of Robb sleeping with Jeyne, I think entire blame is on Mother Nature and the hormones... Robb was a horny 16 year-old boy and he did what many would expect of him to do. I sincerely doubt Ned was talking about Jon's mother at all to Robb, plus somehow I doubt he was bragging about his conquests like Robert would have done. 



#3 BanzaiZ

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:06 PM

I hold Robb's actions on Robb. Is it understandable to an extent? Yes. But he had every chance to walk away from Jeyne and chose not to. I don't see how the blame for that action could be put on Cat, Ned, and sure as hell not Sansa of all people. 

 

That was Robb's choice, and it should be owned as much.



#4 Arthur Dayne's Honor

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:11 PM

The only thing Ned did wrong when it comes to his children is that he didn't teach him that winter is always coming. As for who is guilty of Robb sleeping with Jeyne, I think entire blame is on Mother Nature and the hormones... Robb was a horny 16 year-old boy and he did what many would expect of him to do. I sincerely doubt Ned was talking about Jon's mother at all to Robb, plus somehow I doubt he was bragging about his conquests like Robert would have done. 

:agree:

#5 David Selig

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:14 PM

  Ned married to get an army and this helped him win the war, if anything his example should've made Robb keep the Frey deal.

 

 The dumb part about Robb's actions was the marriage, not the fact that he had sex with Jeyne. If he hadn't married her, Walder Frey wouldn't have cared one bit that Robb had a bit of fun on the side.

 

 What does "his responsibility to his wife" has to do with this topic, BTW? Robb wasn't married yet when he met Jeyne. 


Edited by David Selig, 11 October 2013 - 02:19 PM.


#6 aceluby

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:33 PM

Yeah, Robb sleeping w/ Jeyne is totally, 100% acceptable.  He had absolutely no reason to marry her to keep her honor, especially since her house is ruled by Lannisters.  He should never have cared about her or her father's honor, even if they made a bastard.  It was incredibly stupid to marry her.



#7 Agamemnon

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:51 PM

Yeah, Robb sleeping w/ Jeyne is totally, 100% acceptable.  He had absolutely no reason to marry her to keep her honor, especially since her house is ruled by Lannisters.  He should never have cared about her or her father's honor, even if they made a bastard.  It was incredibly stupid to marry her.

Well if he did follow Ned's example that is exactly as he would do... In the eyes of the many Ned knocked up some commoner but did it AFTER he was already married, Robb would have thought he was doing even better than his father even if he new it was a mistake to marry the girl dont try to blame it on The Ned



#8 Arthur Dayne's Honor

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:55 PM

Just imagine if he married some random field nurse he met when she was chopping off a guys leg or something :ack: .........oh wait

#9 Blackfish Tully

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:55 PM

Yeah, Robb sleeping w/ Jeyne is totally, 100% acceptable.  He had absolutely no reason to marry her to keep her honor, especially since her house is ruled by Lannisters.  He should never have cared about her or her father's honor, even if they made a bastard.  It was incredibly stupid to marry her.

 

What he could have done is married her in secret and then had her shipped off to the Free Cities and kept the marriage secret until he no longer needed the Freys. Maybe that's not totally honorable but it would have been safer.



#10 Roose The Weddingcrasher

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:05 PM

Two(Three?) words: Maegi-grand(or so)mother , love potion. I know Robb might be quite passionate and emotional at that time, but by that time he learned responsibility. As for the hormones, while raiding the Westerlands, he would have plenty of "options" to take care of that. The  whole situation with Jeyne was to perfect for the Lannisters to not be due to magic. And the whole "she comforted him after he learned that his brothers died" seems like a very poor excuse. WTH, of all timings he picked the one when he was mourning his brothers? He's not Jaime to do it beside the corpse of his son! As a man, I can't imagine how he would even... under those sircumstances and without magic involved. Of course, it would be possible, but all this and the hints considered, the love potion is by far the most likely option.


Edited by Roose The Weddingcrasher, 11 October 2013 - 03:13 PM.


#11 Roland Deschain of Gilead

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:15 PM

  Ned married to get an army and this helped him win the war, if anything his example should've made Robb keep the Frey deal.
 
 The dumb part about Robb's actions was the marriage, not the fact that he had sex with Jeyne. If he hadn't married her, Walder Frey wouldn't have cared one bit that Robb had a bit of fun on the side.
 
 What does "his responsibility to his wife" has to do with this topic, BTW? Robb wasn't married yet when he met Jeyne. 

Indeed, if Robb really was Eddards "example" then he would have just left Jeyne pregnant.

From Robbs POV
Eddard: Marries for an army, goes to war, has sex whilst away and has a bastard.
Robb:promises to marry for an army/access, goes to war, has sex whilst away and then marries the woman.

If he was following his dad he would have just left Jeyne after the war and raised the bastard.

#12 AlsoPlips

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:52 PM

Well it's certainly Robb's own fault that he chose to do what he did, but I can see Ned's role in Robb coming to that decision. Honor was very important to Ned, and he raised his sons to be the same way. When Robb had his night of passion with Jeyne he married her to preserve her honor. This was his own decision and he is the only one that can be blamed for it, but the way he was raised by Ned definitely had an impact on how he made it.  


Edited by AlsoPlips, 11 October 2013 - 03:55 PM.


#13 AlsoPlips

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:58 PM

Indeed, if Robb really was Eddards "example" then he would have just left Jeyne pregnant.

From Robbs POV
Eddard: Marries for an army, goes to war, has sex whilst away and has a bastard.
Robb:promises to marry for an army/access, goes to war, has sex whilst away and then marries the woman.

If he was following his dad he would have just left Jeyne after the war and raised the bastard.

 

I disagree, I think Robb saw Ned's shame about having a bastard, and that would have influenced him to marry the Jeyne to prevent making the same "mistake" his father did



#14 Bold Barry Whitebeard

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:01 PM

I think people overstate the importance of Robb marrying Jeyne in his eventual downfall.  He lost the Karstarks on his own, and Bolton was already on the fence, making overtures to the Lannisters.  There was also a reason that Frey didn't demand that the marriage go through before marching, like Hoster Tully did with Eddard.  He was keeping his options open, allowing himself the chance to betray Robb later if it suited his purposes.

 

Robb marrying Jeyne may have been the instigator, but all the players were open to betraying him before that happened, and probably would have, since his position was so weak.



#15 Roland Deschain of Gilead

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:02 PM

 
I disagree, I think Robb saw Ned's shame about having a bastard, and that would have influenced him to marry the Jeyne to prevent making the same "mistake" his father did

How did Ned have any shame for Jon? He brought him to his home and raised him as a son. He was clearly proud of Jon. Other people used it to try to poke holes In eddards unbelievably honorable personality, but from how he acted (and told other people to act, and THOUGHT about Jon) Ned clearly gave no fucks about Jon.

ETA. I think the red wedding was planned before Robb slept with Jeyne, and that it was originally going to be his wedding, not Edmures.

Edited by Roland Deschain of Gilead, 11 October 2013 - 04:04 PM.


#16 Nikolay

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:07 PM

His father married a woman he didn't love, or even know, for the sake of his house, the bannermen loyal to the Starks and allied houses like Baratheon. Robb married a woman he loved out of selfishness, breaking a betrothal and knowingly hurting his house, his bannermen and his allies like the Tullies in the process, even putting their lives at risk.

 

If Ned was in Robb's shoes, he would have done the exact opposite. He would have realized that any obligations he has towards the girl he deflowered are overridden by his betrothal obligations to the Freys, the obligations he has towards his bannermen that followed him into war to win, and his obligation to win the war in order to avenge his father and rescue his sisters.



#17 Marwi

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:23 PM

The way I see it, Robb really loved his father and looked up to him. I am sure that he modeled himself after his father, no matter if it came to personality, leadership or combat. 
 
Now, jumping into bed with Jeyne was probably what made Robb lose the war and his life. My question is: Why wouldn't he? Surely his father had never said anything about his responsibility to his wife, since Ned himself did the naughty while at war. Even if R+L is true and Eddard was faithful, Robb did not know that. Ned just do not strike me as the type to preach something he himself was unable to do, and too bad of a liar to talk about that stuff if Jon really isn't his kid.
 
People seem to blame Cat, Robb and even Sansa for what happened to Robb, but for once I really think it was Ned's fault. Robb didn't know any better, and his dad should have made it clear that marriage alliances always come first, love second.


I personally blame Brandon Stark [Robb's uncle] for this. If one of such fiery and wolf-like blood would have been MORE around Ned's children, they would have grown up more Starks in the true meaning of it. Ned was the exception, not the norm.

#18 Nemesis

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:29 PM

Rob married jeyne out of guilt. It was like " WHAT HAVE I DONE ?!!!" . He was not able to make a rational decision in this situation.  Had he had two weeks to think about it, he would have decided the other way.



#19 AlsoPlips

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:43 PM

How did Ned have any shame for Jon? He brought him to his home and raised him as a son. He was clearly proud of Jon. Other people used it to try to poke holes In eddards unbelievably honorable personality, but from how he acted (and told other people to act, and THOUGHT about Jon) Ned clearly gave no fucks about Jon.

ETA. I think the red wedding was planned before Robb slept with Jeyne, and that it was originally going to be his wedding, not Edmures.

 

That's a good point, the more I think on it the more I think I was wrong. I always imagined Ned seeing Jon as a stain on his honor, but upon looking back I don't recall any evidence of these thoughts so this seems more like a fabrication of my own mind. Apologies for being ingnant



#20 PrimeRhaegar

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:54 PM

this just showed how guilt is a powerful thing. He felt he owed jeyne because they pleased each other